Former Head of BCG-North America Joe Davis on Generous Leadership, Why It Isn't Always Nice, and What Separates Great Executives From the Rest

‍‍In Brief: Joe Davis (linkedin.com/in/joedavis1313, joedavis.com), former Head of Boston Consulting Group-North America and author of The Generous Leader: 7 Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain, joins host Dan Freehling (contempusleadership.com) to discuss what separates truly generous leadership from simply being nice. Joe draws the distinction between direct kindness and fearful ‘nice’ (03:05). He explains why technology, the always-on work-life blur, and the disappearance of lifetime job security have made command-and-control unworkable (06:39). Joe argues that the rise of AI raises the premium on generous leaders who can guide their teams through change (11:02), tells a vulnerable personal story about his father and explains how sharing it with colleagues deepened trust (17:52), and offers hard-won lessons on driving organizational change (26:16). Joe and Dan discuss the role of purpose in private-sector companies (30:20), Joe’s lessons on nonprofit board service (35:28), and what he hopes executives will take away from the book (37:25). Show notes at forwardlookingleadership.com.

Transcript

Dan Freehling (00:01): Hey everyone, Dan here. Welcome to another episode of Forward-Looking Leadership. Today, I'm honored to be joined by Joe Davis. Joe is the former head of Boston Consulting Group North America and the author of the new book, The Generous Leader: Seven Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain. Joe, thanks for joining us on Forward-Looking Leadership.

Joe Davis (00:23): Thank you, Dan. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Dan (00:27): Likewise. Joe, so first, can you walk us through some of your career highlights? And I know some longtime listeners might be surprised to hear me ask this. This is something that I almost always avoid trying to get into, but I think it's important here for people to really hear your message on generous leadership to know the level that you are operating at.

Joe (00:48): Okay. Well, thank you. And I will try to make it the highlights. I'm old enough we could be here all day. After college, I worked at Procter & Gamble, as you know, and I spent time as a salesperson, then got promoted to sales manager. Which actually even if we want to talk about it, some interesting lessons even in those first three or four years of my career. Then went on to Harvard Business School and got a job at BCG, Boston Consulting Group as a summer intern. Accepted a full-time offer and worked at BCG for 37 years, which is quite unusual to your point. I mean, consulting is not the easiest person's game. And quite a career there. I spent time in the Boston office in Australia, co-opened our Washington office, worked on the West Coast, and a number of different. I started our public sector practice.

Joe (01:37): I led our Northeast and I also led BCG North America, 7,000 people. And interestingly, during the COVID time, I mean, that was the middle of my tenure, which it was quite a good time to be a leader if you liked to lead in a crisis. It was a great time. So that's it in the highlights. And I've of course through BCG worked with many clients, many corporations, nonprofits and for-profit of course, and government. Oh, I thought to mention, I think I founded our government practice. And a lot of CEOs along the way who I got to observe, the good ones, the great ones, and the just fine ones. And some who sometimes you wonder how they got in the role, but that's okay.

Dan (02:22): Well, thanks so much for sharing that with listeners. And again, I think it's important context for the topic that we're going to get into today, which is what is the difference between generous leadership and just being a nice person? I know in a lot of people's minds, this sounds like it might be something that leadership development people say and is kind of this touchy feely, nice to have kind of thing that in reality they feel the people who actually get ahead don't enact. We're going to get into it in all the different questions today, but I want to start with what do you see as this main difference between true generosity and simply being nice?

Joe (03:05): Well, it's interesting. I think when I say the word generosity, of course I don't mean more money and that because. But what I mean is the leader really thinks it's their job to train, give of themselves and help others grow and develop to be at their best. And that's the generous part. You're generously giving to yourself for others to really thrive. And it's opposite nice because sometimes we can maybe talk about it, but if you might have to give feedback, that's very tough and very direct. So someone say, "Well, that's not very nice." But quite frankly, if you're helping somebody grow, it's probably the nicest thing you could do. And some people are just sweet people and that's wonderful. They often, maybe not in the roles we're talking about, but sometimes nice is just a code for fear. I don't want to give the feedback I'm afraid to, or I don't want to be tough right now because they're not going to like me or I don't want to make a decision and I want to be nice and get everybody involved because I'm afraid to make the decision.

Joe (04:03): But in my mind, generous is none of that. It's actually all the great management talent skills plus really making it your job to grow your team. The other part about this kind of feedback is if you're really doing it with them in mind, them growing, them getting past their roadblocks, you can almost say whatever you want. I was running the West Coast and there was a person there who had transferred him from Europe. In Europe, he was a superstar. He was underperforming in the United States for whatever reasons. And it had been two years in a BCG, if you're a partner and after three years, if you're not performing, you kind of go away.

Joe (04:41): He and I were sitting down and I knew this was eating at him because he was a superstar before. I said to him, I said, "Listen, my friend, you have three choices. You go home, you quit, or I fire you. You pick." He said, "Oh, thank you, Joe. I've been thinking about..." Because someone said, "How could you be so blunt?" Well, I knew he was sitting there at night in his bed worried about which. And he said, "I'll go home." He went home and he's a superstar again. And so someone said, "Well, that was really harsh and really direct." Actually, I take the opposite point of view. I think it was kind and direct and helpful and he picked an action and he moved on. Otherwise, he was stuck and hurting.

Dan (05:18): Yeah. What do you contrast generous leadership with? What is this an answer to? What are other alternative ways of thinking about leadership that this is different from?

Joe (05:29): I think probably the best way to say it is the command and control and distant. Well, I won't pick on these, but the leader sends down the orders and everyone marches to them, no questions, do what you're told, be in line. And maybe I will say, when you think of the days of IBM, the white shirt, the blue suit, and IBM's a great company and it's evolved massively, but you remember those days and even Apple did that funny commercial where the IBM people walking and falling off the cliff. I mean, those days where you were just a cog in the wheel, people didn't work to connect with you as an employee, you had your role, that's all you did. So either it could be just that, which isn't very. You don't feel engaged or the really command and control model.

Dan (06:19): I guess two questions here. So one is what is your read on what's made the shift from command and control to generosity make sense? And two, for listeners who might see these very public, let's say non-generous leaders seeming to succeed, why shouldn't they just emulate that?

Joe (06:39): Two things really. One, the biggest one is technology. So our work life world has blurred and it started blurring with the Blackberry many years ago, but all of a sudden you could be on twenty four seven, 365. It was never like that. Your boss wasn't going to call you at 10:30 at night at home. Now they can send you. And so it went to the Blackberry to the phone and everything. So the always on the work-life blurring is one thing that's fundamental and that COVID only pushed it further. And so people could no longer separate the two as well as they used to. So I could be myself at home and I could be my work person at work. Now, I'm working at home, that's funny. Or in my living room with my counterpart in their kitchen or I'm at work for many, many hours and I want to be myself more.

Joe (07:31): So I think technology has driven the work-life balance change blur so that we need to bring our human self to work. We want to and we need to. And then you start to look for a leader to bring themselves, their human side. As well as I was thinking about this and some people say to me, "Why does that matter?" Well, the best people will quit if you don't engage with them. It doesn't matter. But the other thing that's changed is we never had guaranteed life employment like maybe Japan did, but if you got a job at P&G or IBM many years ago and had a role, you kind of did have that job your whole life if you wanted to. And that broke on their side too.

Joe (08:15): Two things have changed where you say, "Okay, you want me here. I have to deliver, I get it, but you have to grow me or I'm going to go somewhere else." I think those are the two things that have changed the most. Some people say to me, "Oh, the young people, they're just going to grow up and be like us and guts it out." But no, no, it's changed. You and I, well, you're at home and I'm at home probably, so we're not doing this from an office. Now you asked about some of these famous leaders today. Well, I say, sure, if you're a genius, so are you a genius? That eliminates most of us and you have a genius idea, like let's say Mark Zuckerberg, and it happened to be just at the right time and it worked out, you could maybe get away with a lot of crap.

Joe (09:05): So Elon Musk can get away with a lot of crap. Mark Zuckerberg can get away with. But the thing that's interesting is I bet you every manager. Well, first off, I have a lot of friends who have children who worked at Facebook and these places and they last two or three years and they're out of there. And they say, "I don't like the culture. I don't like the environment." So it's not like they're staying forever. Some are, but I will guarantee you there's got to be managers within that place and leaders who are trying to connect with their people and help them grow or they're not staying. And also, so sure, some of these guys, but it's not that many. You go look at most of the jobs in the world, most of the corporations who have very good CEOs, they're trying to engage with their people, they're trying to communicate well, they're trying to bring the bit of their human self.

Joe (09:52): They're not crying at work, but they're bringing a bit of their human self. The other thing that's going to contrast is Microsoft used to be the command and control gates and then Ballmer. Microsoft stock was flat throughout most of Ballmer's time. Then Satya comes in all about culture. We're going to break down the walls, we're going to work together. He's still tough guy, better be smart, you better deliver. We'll have a good strategy, but it was I'm going to fix the culture and the stock went like that and he made some smart bets on Azure and the like, but he had the team teaming together to drive it, not simply not just genius ideas. I think there's a few people get away with it. I don't think the average person or the above average person's going to get away with it.

Dan (10:42): There's so much talk now about the rise of AI and what this means for the future of work and for leaders and for organizations. Given what we know now, what is your best sense of how this impacts this generous leadership concept? Does it make it that much more important? Does it change it in any way?

Joe (11:02): First off, I actually think it's only the continuation of me saying technology is driving the need for these type of leaders. AI just makes it more where there's a machine involved with your work life and you can do things all the time. I actually think the people that are going to really thrive as leaders are going to be even more so knowing how to engage with the team, understand where they're coming from. Right now we're of a period of change, help them navigate the change. I was just reading some of the data, different studies from Gallup and Deloitte and the like, and 12% of employees so far think AI is really helping make a difference. So it's not even when you're put into their company and half of them think or 42% that when companies are rolling out AI, they're ignoring the whole people side.

Joe (11:52): So quite frankly, if you want to be an exceptional leader, you would actually embrace just the opposite of that. Okay, how can I as a leader ensure AI is fitting into the people side of this as well as actually delivering real value and how do I engage with my people to make sure that happens in my team, et cetera? I think it's only going to accelerate it. And you hear more and more college, I'm a board chair of a college, the students that are going to thrive as leaders out there are people who are able to bring the EQ with the understanding of the technology. You have to use the technology who are able to connect with people and lead them through the uncertain times and through a mixture of things doing work, people and computers. So I don't know. I think it's only going to accelerate the need for exceptional leadership.

Dan (12:46): What would be your answer for the more doomer take on this of the reason these AI companies are getting so much investment is that there's this implicit promise of being able to replace lots of workers and make it so that companies don't have to hire nearly as many people for things. Do you think that's all kind of overblown? This is another technological shift. Do you think there's merit to that? What do you think about that?

Joe (13:11): Now I do think if companies. Well, we're already seeing it. A lot of companies started with AI and it's going to save all this and save all that. There's not much data to say it's done it yet, which is probably a flaw in the way they've rolled it out. And it's like anything, there's a gold rush to use it. Then people start say, wait a minute, where do we really want to mine for the gold? How do we want to get the gold? What's the most effective way? What tools do we use when? Not just guys shaking baskets in the creek. So I do think that there will be job changes and displacement, of course. I mean, my brother's in software sales, but he's older. He's just retired out of it now, but just the jobs are going away because the software isn't needed, no offense, but the machine can do some of that stuff.

Joe (13:59): But it's just like everything. It'll be hard and some people will be displaced quicker than others. The best organizations will figure out how to either retrain them into other roles or they might have to change people, but it's no different from the farm to the industrial age. That was a massive shift. I mean, these things have happened. Now, it's painful when they happen, the 10 or 20 years we go through it. And sometimes there's a World War II to tie with it, so I don't want to get too. You said doom, so I can say it. Actually, I think every time there's a World II, so we don't want that to happen. But I think organization wise, I'm not at BCG anymore. I left a year and a half ago, but we really work hard on, okay, if you're going to try to use this tool, what's the benefits you want to bring with it?

Joe (14:48): What are you trying to do with it? I mean, it's just like every. I even think when IT started, "Oh, let's roll out SAP before there was anything, let's roll out this new program." Well, what's the benefit you want to get from that program? Why are you rolling it out? And do a pilot of something that'll make, "Oh, it made a difference. Okay, now let's roll it further." This tool's 10 times, it's rolling out much faster, but it's no different. Where do you want to use it? How are you going to use it? I'm getting off kind of your question with both sides, but of course people will be affected. But it's not unlike. I'll tell you, I had one of the. It was J&J was a client of mine at one point, and I was talking to the head of sales and he's talking about when a new technology, a new tool comes out to help the sales guy, even the best salespeople, whether they were 63 and you'd think, "Oh, old guy.

Joe (15:37): If he was a superstar, he would grab the new technology, he or she right away." It's nothing to do with old guy, new guy. The best always look for tools to be better and the rest, for whatever reason, were leery of it. So I thought it was very fascinating. So this is no different. The best will grab the tools that actually make themselves even better and the most fearful will duck and the outcome of that isn't going to be so good. Yeah, it's not just the leader. I think as a person you want to. Well, I just think of all the change programs I did as part of BCG. And if the program's run well and it's engaging the people and it's communicating, it's really clear on where the direction and what the benefits are, those employees who embraced it usually thrive the best in the change.

Joe (16:27): I mean, it was interesting. Google did a study called Project Oxygen. They looked at 80,000 managers across the company and the highest performing ones, basically what are the people in their teams performing? What was it they said? They said, oh, the manager's a great coach. And how are they going to coach? Oh, they actually engaged me and empowered me and gave me opportunities. And how they do, they asked me questions, they listened, they asked me questions, they listened. So it's the best people, if they feel engaged with by a generous leader or just a damn good manager will stay because they feel empowered. And then lo and behold, that whole team performs better. It's kind of obvious, but it's surprising how many leaders often are afraid to ask questions and listen, ask questions, listen. Either it's fear, they think they have all the answers, they don't want to look like they don't have the answers.

Joe (17:19): So to ask a question shows a little humbleness and vulnerability they may not be comfortable with, but it's a pretty simple tool to engage your people and to learn what you don't know.

Dan (17:29): Speaking of vulnerability, you have a really powerful personal story in the book. I was listening to the audiobook when I was out walking and it literally stopped me in my tracks. If you don't mind sharing it with our listeners, can you tell us the story of your dad and how sharing this with your BCG colleagues really fostered a new level of trust and connection with them?

Joe (17:52): Yeah, so most people. I'll give the punchline first, but my dad, well, he died, but he was gay. Now, I didn't know it. So my mom and he got divorced. Well, they separated. I don't think they divorced for 30 years, but they separated when I was eight. And I remember my mom just said to me, I said, "When are we going?" We always spent the summer in Western Washington on my grandmother's grandparents' ranch, wheat ranch, and my dad never come, didn't come. I didn't realize what was going on. I said, "When are we going home to see dad?" She goes, "We won't be living with your father anymore." And I didn't get it. I would visit once a couple weeks every year from age eight on. I didn't see what was going on. I lived with him for a year after college, and I'll tell you a funny story.

Joe (18:39): He had a bar in his house, and in the bar, he had a picture painting on the wall, and the painting on the wall was a bar with bar stools and four males naked sitting on the bar stool. It still didn't occur. My dad lived with a guy and he divorced my mom. I still didn't understand my dad was gay. Now, my wife says, "Well, you did, but you didn't get it." No, because what do I get like, "Oh, your dad's gay. Well, why are you here? If your dad's gay, how does that work? Did he like my mom? How did that work?" All these weird questions go in your mind from age 13 to whenever for a while. Not weird, normal questions. And this is back in the '70s and '80s too, or '60s, '70s and '80s.

Joe (19:18): I finally, I guess they acknowledged it when my dad. We were living in Australia with BCG and my dad visited, and he had all these pills in the bathroom, or maybe in the bedroom. Anyway, my wife then noticed, and they were AIDS pills or HIV pills. And so we confronted him, that's a big word, but my wife said, "Oh, do you have AIDS?" And we had two young kids, and these were days where you worried a little bit. And he said, "Yes, I do." Well, I think then I realized he was gay, but as time went on, you think more about it, you grow a little wiser and a little more comfortable. Also, I think I grew more proud of him that in the 60s, 70s, 80s, he chose to try to live his lifestyle, which is hard. It's hard today even, but that was good that he tried to be himself and it wasn't easy back then.

Joe (20:08): And then to your point, I started to talk privately about it with friends or whatever, and I though. I was the head of BCG North America and we have, as I said, networks, and one of them is our pride network, gay, lesbian, et cetera, LGBTQ+.

Joe (20:24): We were having the annual meeting in Chicago, and I said, "Okay, I think I will tell this group, but just not come out," because I'm not pretending I had to come out. It's not that big a deal, but really share this. I think I wanted to for my own self, just talk about it so publicly, but I also thought sharing it, I probably didn't, but sharing a bit of vulnerability, maybe I'll connect with this group a little more. But it was very tricky because I didn't want to go in there and pretend, "Hey, I know what your life's like," because I did a little bit, but you can't see my fingers if you're listening to the radio, but I didn't know really. So I remember I opened up and said, "Well, I just wanted to tell you a little bit about me, and I think I know a sliver of what your life is like because my dad was gay and you could have heard a pin drop.

Joe (21:07): I mean, here's the head of BCG North America of 7,000 people. I was white male at that time, 60 years old, 56 years old and whoa." Then I though, "Gosh, are they going to think I'm just trying to be their friends?" But I just described the story and his background and talked and it was just incredible.

Joe (21:28): The warmth from the group obviously was because it is a group that's typically kind of warm around those, but also the willingness to share themselves and to thank and say, "Thanks for sharing a bit of that." I mean, when you think about it, what did I do with that group? Just sharing that, that's pretty big vulnerability by some people's standards, but it built trust in those group of people that I could be honest and open and helped them to deepen my relationship with them, not personally, but just. And there's a sense of emotional safety for the people you work for. If you can tell a story like that, oh wow, they could be a little bit more themselves. And we all talk about how emotional safety is quite important in the workplace nowadays. Also, I think when you do something like that, you make space for others to acknowledge their vulnerabilities or even the simple sense in work if they're stuck and they don't want to admit they're stuck because they're afraid to be.

Joe (22:20): But if you're stuck, you're not getting something done, so that's not productive. If someone can say, "Hey, boss, I'm stuck. I don't know what to do. Will you help?" That's very freeing and then you get a lot more done. So there's a lot of these benefits, which that moment only amplified it all. It made me think about it.

Joe (22:41): It was a very powerful moment for me personally inside and actually for me as a leader because I noticed, wow, just sharing something that major, but sharing your personal self, you create bonds that are very powerful as a leader.

Dan (22:56): Well, thank you for sharing that. Again, so sorry for your loss, and I hope that listeners can see how they can bring a version of this vulnerability into their day-to-day as a leader and how this really does wonders for breaking down these barriers and building this trust and connection with people.

Joe (23:12): I do think this, whether you want to call it humbleness or honesty or humanness or authenticity or vulnerability, like Ted Lasso kind of thing, I just think this is very important for a leader. And actually just to contrast, if you know a leader who just looks good, their family looks good, everything's perfect, they're the highest sales guy or the highest revenue generator, you don't know how to follow them, right? You think, wait a minute. And you also think, wait, something's got to be wrong somewhere. So now there's an element of mistrust already developed in your relationship. Can I tell one more story on this one? Scott Kirby was telling me also during COVID, he's the CEO of United, he wanted to get on the video, same thing, town hall to all his employees and basically say, "I don't know when we're going to fly again.

Joe (23:58): I don't know what this means for our business, but we're in it together and I'm going to have to furlough some of you. I got it, but no one's going to get fired and we'll somehow..." And his team though before he said, "You can't do that. You're the CEO. You have to have the answers. You can't get up there and say you don't know where you're going." And he said to his guys, "Well, what are you talking about? When am I going to tell him we're going to fly in 93 days?" So to him it was very obvious, but their team thought CEO can't admit he or she doesn't know the direction we're going, but he didn't. He just knew the direction was going to be together with smart moves and he told everybody that. That's fair. You follow somebody who's authentic like that.

Dan (24:38): It's a great one in that he had to overrule these more small C conservative compliance oriented people and make a hard decision here. It's much more in that true generous leadership, true authenticity than the conflict avoidant, nice kind of leadership.

Joe (24:56): Yeah. Either the conflict avoidance or the person that thinks I'm the boss, I have all the answers. And let me tell you folks, during COVID I didn't what you would say because anything you'd say, they wouldn't believe because you do not know. There are still a lot of leaders that think their job is to have every answer and that is impossible by definition. Now you have to, as a leader, set a direction, be confident and change directions, which is a vulnerability if you're wrong, but that doesn't mean you have to have all the answers. You still as a leader, every leader I interviewed in this book, every single one said they love to ask questions and listen, ask questions and listen. A lot of them talked about how they'll walk the halls and go talk to the finance analyst that's doing the work, not the vice president of finance who's presenting the work to them because you get different kind of answers if you do that.

Joe (25:49): So I just think this whole, you call it vulnerability, you call it humbleness, just call exposing a little bit of your own humanity, goes a massive way to freeing your team and building your relationship with that team such that they want to follow you.

Dan (26:03): You mentioned some organizational change initiatives. What have been some of your biggest lessons learned on making organizational change that really works, that lasts, that sticks?

Joe (26:16): If you're trying to drive a change in the organization, a couple of points I'll go without. A lot of there's books on this and BCG has books on it, as does McKinsey and Payne and everybody else. But first off, you have to have clarity as to what you're trying to. You, the leadership, and this doesn't just have to be the CEO, but the C-suite and the team, the clarity as to where you're going and the direction you want to and where you want to get to and kind of a sense of the timeline. If you don't do that, and it may be harsh some of it, but the uncertainty is too much. You also absolutely have to have buy-in depending on the. The CEO and the C-suite has to believe we're going to drive this change and wants to get there because the minute they wobble, boom, good luck getting employees.

Joe (26:59): So that's critical. I think another thing that's critical is communicate. We always said this would be communicate, communicate, communicate. I mean, you cannot communicate enough to your team where you're going, the direction, the timing, if you're trying to drive major change. Then I think another more subtle point that's worth remembering or thinking about if you're leadership driving the change is who are the 20 or 30 influencers in a company? And it could be the janitor. If everybody loves the janitor and he whispers and talks to everyone in the hallway and manage to influence and move, that's a little extreme, but it's not just like, oh, who are my 10 managers who are the most influential? It's this person down here in the call center who really manages to move the whole group just through their charisma, the way they communicate, et cetera. But who are those movers and shakers, not movers, but those movers in your organization and go find them and get them on side or figure out why they don't want to be on side and solve it.

Joe (28:00): The last point I'll make is I used to say to my teams if we were helping drive change, you have to engage the skeptics, go find the neurologists and then solve their nose because rarely is a neurologist a blocker, maybe one out of a thousand is just a painful person who wants to won't work. Most of them know something you don't know and you need to know that to make whatever change you want to make happen. So engage the skeptics and cover the nose and then solve them. That's maybe another trick that a lot of people don't think about. They just think about steamrolling as opposed to finding the real problems and solving them.

Dan (28:39): No, that common sense is really coming through and I think a lot of people might think that somebody from one of the top consulting firms in the world is going to have these super complicated strategies and frameworks and things, and it's really coming down to some core people skills here that really make the difference.

Joe (28:58): Yeah. Well, not to talk about consulting, but for one second, consulting changed from many years ago where at least PCG, McKinsey and Bain, they were strategy firms who created slide decks with brilliant insights and left it to the client, said, Good luck to you. And maybe 30 years ago, the clients started saying, "Well, this is great and help me get it done." Actually, one of my clients, when I was a second year, so it wasn't my client, but I was on the team, the CEO said, "Now you got to get it done." And my partner said, he said, "Well, what do you mean we got it done?" He said, "Well, if we knew how to do it, it would be done already." And he kind of though, "Well, we don't do things," but that was 30 years, but now the world's changed where the consulting firms actually would rather help you get it done, not make it a pitch, and now you've got to have a good team and all kinds of things to make that happen, but that's what's changed in consulting, so then the practical things do matter.

Dan (29:47): So one of the big things I'm working on with clients is helping them expand their idea of socially impactful work beyond just the traditional social sector, so beyond Government and nonprofits and things, even though these are very important, they can play a huge role in this, and into private sector organizations that have a real purpose drive behind them. I know this will come as no surprise to you, but what do you see as the role of purpose in private sector organizations?

Joe (30:20): The best companies who have been around for a hundred years or 200 years have a clear sense of purpose. I started Procter & Gamble and you say, "Well, what do you just make soap?" But when I worked there, we though we're going to make things that really changed in those days, I'll take the homemakers, the homemaker's life, make it easier or like Crest toothpaste, really actually get rid of cavities. We believed that. It wasn't just, oh, make some toothpaste, market it brilliantly and make money. Now of course, we're supposed to make money. That's what it is for profit. But the purpose underpinned it, and this started with, I wasn't around, but Proctor and Gamble a hundred years ago. And that drove in everybody's behavior. I mean, I didn't go into sell stuff because I wanted to make the numbers, but I actually believe that Tide was going to clean your clothes better.

Joe (31:14): Now, you could argue maybe, well, there migts in Tide, so times have changed, but Tide is going to clean your clothes better, which is going to make your life easier. Or why are you cleaning your clothes if you don't care? Or Crest is going to get rid of, or Head and Shoulders is going to get rid of dandruff, which is really bothering you and causing stress in your blah, blah, blah. So we believe that. And I think of another Johnson & Johnson has a credo, and the shareholder is on the credo, but I don't know, if the credo's seven things, it's number six or something. It's not number one. And Johnson & Johnson really does truly want to improve the health of individuals. And the credo is created by one of the Johnson people, sixth generation or maybe four generations ago. And it's edited slightly over the years, but it's been there for a hundred years.

Joe (32:04): I just think of Delta. Silly, I fly on Delta a lot, but take you where you want to go in the world. Okay, so whatever. Well, you want to go somewhere. So Delta's whole role is to get you there safely, effectively, and not in somewhat a pleasant way, being on a little plane. These people, these things infuse the organization. They infuse the organization. And therefore it makes a lot easier. If we're talking about generous leadership, all this other stuff, engaging, helping others grow within the context of a purpose-driven organization is a lot easier. So a lot of these companies also try to truly give back in what they're doing, not all of them. And I don't mean just by having a philanthropic team that gives away 5% of the profits. That's important too, because we need the money, but that's not quite the same thing as trying to really put your mind power behind making a difference.

Dan (32:57): What is some advice you would give to people who are either currently serving on a nonprofit board or who might be interested in doing so in the future?

Joe (33:05): I got to be careful because I could go on too long again. I guess a couple of things to the conversation we just said, you as the board chair and with your president or managing director or whatever it is, you have to make sure there is a clear purpose and reason for being and that it's communicated effectively. So that starts there because otherwise why would people give money, which is something you need a nonprofit if they don't see the purpose and the goal, why would people want to work there? That's number one. The other thing I think is as a nonprofit board chair, so it's working effectively with the leadership team is always important, but probably even more important in nonprofit because here they want your help. Sometimes for-profits, the CEO picks me and they want advice, but they don't want help. In this case, they want help and that's number two.

Joe (33:56): Number three is it isn't your job to meddle though as a board chair. And I had to learn this because I came from business and I was used to doing and really it's not my job to do. It's my job to engage, blah, blah, blah. So you got to be careful not to do them. The other thing I'd say though, which is quite important, I'm a college board chair, so that's a unique place where there's faculty, et cetera, is ensuring you understand and engage with and communicate with the entire constituency of the team, not just the president or whatever, CEO or whatever it is, the leader of the organization. If the board doesn't work effectively, not have to work with, but doesn't engage effectively with faculty or students or the staff, the whole thing can go sideways. It doesn't mean they have to agree with you, but they have to know you.

Joe (34:49): So that's the other thing I think I learned most all is within the context of the president or the leader, you don't want to be going around their back having a bunch of meetings with all the employees, but I think that's something I think is pretty important in nonprofit is having the team feel like, okay, the board has our back, has leader's back. They're actually here contributing because they want to. And sometimes people think the board is there for whatever reason, but not because they actually are volunteering to want to be there. That's probably a handful of pieces of advice I'd give.

Dan (35:21): Yeah. What does helping without meddling really look like in practice?

Joe (35:28): Well, it does mean not do. So you really aren't supposed to do. So it might be, oh, this thing's broken. I'll just call the faculty chair and say, why don't you do this and that? That is not my job. My job is to go to the president, say, listen, I have some. So really helping is counseling, advising, giving suggestions, bringing your expertise, bringing board members in with expertise to help the leadership team and/or the employees where it's appropriate. And not try to do, not try to micromanage. And the way you might do with the contrast is you might start going around and talking to people. "Listen, if I just talk to so-and-so, we'll get this fixed for you. "That ain't your job to fix it. It's your job to do the president council on how to fix it or the CEO. That might be the biggest example.

Joe (36:21): But the other part of it though is important is those people on the board usually that have expertise could be really useful. So how do you effectively ensure you connect them with the right people in the organization to lend their expertise and not do things, but just give the counsel the advice from their experiences? I think people would value that, but not if they think you're coming in to do it.

Dan (36:44): Yeah. This is something you see people have a misconception on all the time on what is your role as a nonprofit board member and where can you be most useful?

Joe (36:52): Yeah. Most board members, I don't know, they probably come from some management kind of role or business kind of role or management kind of role. So they think their job is to do. And now in this context, you're not the manager. Anyway, I think that's the biggest thing you've got to learn. And then maybe anyway, especially in your first role.

Dan (37:16): So in bringing this home for people of everything in the book, all seven traits, what do you really want listeners to walk away with?

Joe (37:25): Yeah. I think when people ask me this question, friends, they say, Joe, what should I do? And I'd say three things. I'd have seven traits and you got to do them all. But first off, this whole idea of asking and listening. So engaging with people, asking them questions, thinking about where are they coming from, what's their background within work, what department are they in, what's maybe their life situation as best you can, and then really listening to what they're having to say and identify where they're saying something that doesn't fit what you think the world is and then understand why because you're going to learn. So this whole simple ask and listen, it's very easy. So really be a generous listener. That's number one. But then I'm going to bounce around. Going with that is this whole thing you've talked about, you and I have the authenticity or vulnerability.

Joe (38:12): If you're really going to ask and listen and say, oh, they know something I don't know, you have to be a little bit humble or vulnerable because if you think you have all the answers, you can't by definition do that. So if your vulnerability is nothing more than when you ask a question, deeply listen and say, what do they know? I don't know. Otherwise you just can't really, you can lead, but I don't think you can really grow an organization. Then the third one we didn't talk about, and I say it because it's not hard, is this idea I say, be generous in the moment. Small acts have big impact. Whether it's a simple thing of sending a happy birthday email to your team on their birthday means a lot to somebody, especially if they know they come from you actually caring. Or I'll tell a quick story.

Joe (38:57): A friend of BCG once told me she was a manager, but not a partner. She said if her partner, she's on a Friday, tell her boss, Hey, this weekend, it's a big weekend. My son's going to be in a soccer tournament. That's a nice thing, just simple human thing to say. She said, if my manager or the partner comes back on Monday or Tuesday and say, oh, by the way, how'd that soccer tournament go? She is just like, she said, I will follow them anywhere. Because think about it, it's very simple. Maybe it took 10 seconds to ask and you have to listen to the answer for a minute. So it took two minutes of your day. And she said they remembered. They cared enough about me to remember. They cared enough about me to know it was something that I cared about and they cared enough to ask and then they listened to what I said.

Joe (39:39): She said, I'll follow them anywhere within reason. So small acts like that, and there can be a lot of them sending an email congratulating people, person on job well done, which you think, ah, whatever, just an email, but it means a lot to somebody because they can keep it. They can print it if they want. That's the other thing that's quite easy to do that really goes a long ways to showing you care about your team. And you got to do it in something that matters to them. It's personal to them, not personal to you. So that's the thing I'd say. Listen generously, which really ask questions and listen. Somehow figure out how to bring some of your humanity and your humbleness and your vulnerability to work, whatever's comfortable for you. And then small acts be a big impact. That can have huge benefit to you as a leader at any level, any level.

Dan (40:26): Joe, thank you for taking the time to share your immense expertise with our listeners. I hope they really heard what you had to say and can put this idea of generosity into practice in their own leadership. How can people listening learn more about what you're up to, follow along and pick up a copy of The Generous Leader?

Joe (40:45): Well, you can get a copy of the book from Amazon, of course, or any of these Barnes & Noble, whatever you want. It's there. It's actually coming out paperback, so that's exciting for me. And then if you want to follow along, actually I'm pretty good at posting my thinking on LinkedIn. I think most of it makes YouTube and that stuff, but then just different thoughts. So you follow along on LinkedIn also. If you want to connect with me, I will connect. If you leave a LinkedIn message, I don't check it all the time, but I'm getting better, then I'll give you my email and LinkedIn's not a way to communicate with, just waiting to make introductions.

Dan (41:24): Well, Joe, thank you again. It's been a pleasure.

Joe (41:26): Yeah, it was interesting because most people just drill me on the seven traits. This was more of an interesting conversation, not to sound arrogant with a leader, with a guy that's been there, done that for 30 years.