BoardBridge Co-Founder Stephe McMahon on How to Join a Nonprofit Board, Why It Beats Traditional Leadership Development, and the Power of Your 'New Kid Card'

In Brief: Stephe McMahon (boardbridge.com, linkedin.com/in/stephe-mcmahon-3b2750/), co-founder and Chief BridgeBuilder at BoardBridge, which empowers corporate employees to serve on nonprofit boards, joins host Dan Freehling (contempusleadership.com) to dig into why there are more than a million open seats on nonprofit boards and how to close the gap. Stephe explains why the on-ramp to board service is so unclear and how BoardBridge lowers the barrier for individuals and nonprofits alike (01:18). He shares his advice for aspiring board members (07:55) and gives a crash course on board service (14:20). Stephe and Dan discuss board service as a form of leadership development, including new Taproot Foundation and PwC research showing pro bono service outperforms traditional training on human skills (17:44). Stephe makes the case for using your "new kid card" and what good governance actually looks like (32:25) and walks through the BoardBridge process end to end (38:10).

Recommended Reading: BoardSource's resources and Taproot Foundation and PwC's "Human Skills at Work" report. Show notes at forwardlookingleadership.com.

Transcript

Dan Freehling (00:05): Hey everyone, Dan here. Welcome to another episode of Forward-Looking Leadership. Today, I'm honored to be joined by Stephe McMahon. Stephe is the co-founder and Chief BridgeBuilder at BoardBridge, which empowers corporate employees to serve on nonprofit boards. Stephe, thanks so much for joining us on Forward-Looking Leadership.

Stephe McMahon (00:24): Oh, thanks, Dan. I'm really excited to be here. As you know, I shared with you that I'm pretty excited to follow your podcast, and as somebody who's been creeping over into the talent development world much more so than the corporate social responsibility world where I've been, that's been really helpful and insightful, and I've really appreciated several of the speakers who you've had in the past.

Dan (00:44): Well, we're really excited to have you, and especially to get into this topic of serving on a nonprofit board, which I think is something that's really top of mind for a lot of listeners, a lot of job seekers, a lot of professionals. A cool opportunity, and also for people on the nonprofit side of, how do we fill these gaps on our boards with really qualified people? You say that there's over a million vacancies on nonprofit boards currently, and that was shocking to me to hear, maybe not surprising, but what do you see as the cause of this? What's at the root of this, and where does BoardBridge come in?

Stephe (01:18): I think there's several different pieces to it. I mean, I think the most prominent one though is that the on-ramp isn't very clear. If you want to join a nonprofit board, where do you start? How do you get from being interested to actually sitting on a board? Whereas if you want to mentor a young person in your community, you can pull up Google, you can put in your zip code and mentoring, and you'll get a list of opportunities. And I think part of the reason that the on-ramp's not clear is because we have such a diversity of nonprofits in this country. There are one and a half million of them. They are not a monolith by any means. You hear me say that several times probably, but that lack of clarity around what the on-ramp is, is a big piece of that.

Equally, I think, is the reality that so many people don't really recognize what they have to offer and what they bring. We encounter folks all the time who say, I'm just a X, whatever X is. I'm just a financial analyst. I am just a program manager. And within that, if we start to break that down, there are a ton of skills within that, and that coupled with people's life skills and their passion really creates an opportunity for them to bring a great deal to the table as board members. So what we do here at BoardBridge is really, we meet with individuals where they are, and we meet with nonprofits where they are as well. And our role really is to create that on-ramp, but to do it with two things in mind. One is to lower the barrier of entry for both the nonprofit and the individual.

And the other thing that we do that I'm really proud of, that is unique about our program, is we pair every individual who comes through our program one-on-one with what we call a BridgeBuilder. And that's really somebody who has done this cross-sector work in the past. Mostly they're people who've been on boards themselves, or they're executives who've worked with the board of directors, but they understand what does board service look like, and how does one get on a board? And for many of them, they only know how they got on a board. So we do training so that they understand that there's a whole variety of ways to get on boards, but we do that to really make sure that people understand that, one, for every person out there who's interested and has things to give, there is a nonprofit out there who could use someone on their board.

On the nonprofit side, I think what's equally true is that while there's no on-ramp specifically for people looking to be on boards, there's not a really clear way of casting a net really broadly. I mean, historically, the way that board service gets fulfilled is that people who are on boards invite people who they know to come and take a space that's vacant. As a result, I mean, we only know who we know. So for nonprofits, I think there are lots of opportunities for us to really open that up and say, there are millions of people out there who have so much to give. And there've been efforts around this dynamic in the past. LinkedIn has a thing. If you type in you want to join a nonprofit board and what you're looking for, LinkedIn will give you some examples. The problem with that has been that historically, when LinkedIn's tried to do that, the number of people who want to volunteer skyrockets, and the number of nonprofits who fill out the supply side of that doesn't keep pace.

And part of the reason for that is that by the time somebody does respond who's appropriate, that need may have already been filled. So we as a sector haven't really figured out how to crack that, not fully. For us at BoardBridge, we feel like we've cut out a little bit of a sliver where we walk people through that process.

Dan (04:52): Yeah. And you can see all of the obvious problems with this being a self-perpetuating kind of good old boys network, and that's what a lot of nonprofit boards ends up being, obviously.

Stephe (05:01): Yeah. And I think that so many times the perception that we all have of board members is that they're really old, they're wealthy, they're typically white and male. And when I started my career several decades ago, I think that this was discussed, and I think that there was some genuine commitment to it, but I don't think it was anywhere near what it is today. And I think the reason for that is today, the need is so much more pronounced. I mean, if we're talking about creating a strategic communications plan that really brings in a new generation of donors or volunteers or even recipients of service, like, you cannot talk to. The senior vice president of communications may not be the right person for your board. It may be someone who's early career, who is a digital native, who really understands all the different platforms and all the different vehicles to which to communicate to young people.

So that piece is one example of where the old system doesn't work, but the problem is the old system's what we've got. So I think that there are lots of activities going on where people are trying to figure out really, what is the right way to get there. I think one of the things that's really important for all of your listeners to hear, and for us to remind ourselves, is that in so many instances, it's not that we don't want X, it's that we don't know how to get X. We don't know how to get there. So for instance, if you look at BoardSource survey material over the last two decades, the interest in diversity on nonprofit boards has continued to go up by both board chairs and executive directors. There's been an increased awareness that we want more diversity on our boards. Do you know what hasn't gone up in those two decades?

The diversity on nonprofit boards. And part of that, again, I think the vast majority of that is not ill-intended. It's a lot of unintended bias, but a lot of it also is, we only do things the way we've always done them, and we need to change that if we want to have things be different. The good news is that we're in an age with tons of disruptors. The reshaping of the role of federal government, and then local and state government as a result of how funds get pushed out, the introduction of AI, all those things are disruptors that create opportunities for us to really think through, like, how are we going to get different people on boards providing different perspectives?

Dan (07:15): So imagine you're on the professional side, or you're a working professional, or you're a job seeker who's looking to spend their time serving on a board as part of their ongoing job search efforts, in terms of getting around good people, spending their time wisely, contributing their skillset while they're looking, all this kind of stuff. And this has been something that has been a game changer for a lot of the clients that I've been working with, and you were gracious enough to talk to at least one of these people and help them kind of figure out how to go about this themselves. What would you advise someone who is saying, okay, I want to get on a board, I don't know where to start?

Stephe (07:55): Yeah, I would say there are a couple things that are really important. The first is to recognize that there are one and a half million nonprofits out there, and that creates lots of opportunity. So we oftentimes ask people to start with, what are your passions? Because the reality is, like, right now we want to help wherever we're most needed, but as things get tougher, when there's more required of us, we want there to be passion there so that we can get over those obstacles. So, what are your passions? Where do you currently volunteer? Where do you contribute financially already? You'd be shocked at the number of people for whom we have a conversation and they talk about the nonprofits they're really passionate about. And then we say, have you talked to them about being on their board? And the answer's no.

And again, that's because that on-ramp's not clear. And the on-ramp is not... there's no on-ramp. I mean, we have organizations that have really robust, very structured vetting processes to get folks onto boards. There are others where it's, if you go and have coffee with the board chair or the head of the governance committee, and you talk about the skillset that you have to contribute, and if it aligns with what they need, they present it at the next board meeting and you're on the board. So again, it's that lack of clarity, I think, that leads to people not knowing what to do or how to do it. But I would say that the key things to do are really to ask yourself, what are you most passionate about? And then the second piece is to make sure that you really are aware of what it is you bring to the table.

Again, so many times we discount who we are or what we've brought to the table. So if you are an early career communications professional who has always worked in social media, I mean, you have lived and breathed social media your entire life, just recognize that that's a very different perspective than somebody who's been in the workforce for four decades. And that could be an asset. It doesn't mean it's an asset automatically, but making sure you know that. What is your family history? What is your life history? Are you a first generation college kid? Lots of things that we think of as burdens end up being assets on nonprofit boards, how you identify demographically. Again, we talked about that increased desire for diversity among board chairs and executive directors, and yet the needle not moving in terms of diversity. I think that lots of times it's folks who just haven't figured out what is the way to get there.

I want to be really clear. Some of these things are not rocket science. It's not like these people aren't smart enough to figure it out. It's this thing in a laundry list of five million things that need to get done as the folks who are running nonprofits, this is especially true of smaller nonprofits. So for them to get into the granular pieces of figuring out how to get over some of these hurdles, they're smart enough to do it, certainly. It's a question of time and capacity when they have so many other things to do. So if you can show up with clarity, like, this is who I am, this is what I have to offer. I think also you alluded to being clear about what it is that you want out of it is equally important. You referenced, you alluded to, people sort of either building their network or getting out there more.

I mean, we were working with a company that has hired us because part of their partner track historically was that people, if you were going to be a partner in this firm, you got onto nonprofit boards, because that's how you got known in the community. Well, post-COVID, that pipeline just evaporated, and the culture internally around how that happened isn't clear. So now we're working with this firm that has said, look, here are all of our folks who are on the partner track. And again, they're all in the same boat. They're like, oh, I get it. I understand why that's important and why I should want to do that. I don't know how to do it. Oh, and by the way, Q1 is insane for us, so I really am not going to be able to spend a ton of time doing this work.

That's great for us to know. We can make sure that we don't do a lot of work with them in Q1, but when Q2 hits, we've said, based on everything you've told us, here's a panel of five nonprofits based on where you've given in the past, based on your passions, and based on the skillset that you identified. Two of these five have said this is specifically what they're looking for. And doing that legwork, again, is all about lowering the bar of entry for folks who are interested in nonprofit service.

Dan (12:12): Yeah. It's just really great shifts again of, if you're feeling like you're not a traditional kind of a nonprofit board member, that you might really have some assets here that could work to your favor on this, and that could really benefit the organization and the cause. If you're even just a kind of regular corporate employee or an executive, and this can seem kind of like a world removed from you, but bringing this back to this idea of community service, community engagement is really important.

Stephe (12:38): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think too that, I mean, again, if a company is supporting this as well, being clear about what does the company hope to get out of this is equally important, and we are all about transparency. We are really clear. If this was really super simple and it was like, here are people in column A and here are nonprofits in column B, there wouldn't be a need for anything in this space, right? People would just do it. As we've already alluded to several times, the on-ramp's not clear, and what somebody needs today, what an organization needs today, may be radically different from what they need 18 months from now. And that dynamic shifting of what's needed, it makes it even harder for individuals who want to make a commitment. But when we can show up and we're clear about, like, here's who I am, here's what I have to offer, here's what I hope to get out of it.

Oh, here's how my employer engages in this space with me or not. And then we bring in the perspective of, here's what the nonprofits need and want. And by the way, here's what they have to offer to you as well. I mean, it sounds overly simplistic, but it really is all about just doing the Venn diagram and carving out a piece that's manageable, as opposed to starting out with one and a half million nonprofits, which is just overwhelming, obviously.

Dan (13:56): I imagine there's a number of people watching or listening who are thinking, this sounds great. I would really like to become part of a board, but I want to make sure I'm doing it in the right way. I want to make sure I know what I'm responsible for, what I'm supposed to be doing, what are some best practices for this. If you were giving somebody kind of a crash course on nonprofit board service, what would you say?

Stephe (14:20): Yeah. Well, I would say there are a ton of resources out there, and I don't want to dive into all of it in this limited amount of time that we have, but BoardSource is one that we direct people to often. It's this organization that really focuses on best practices and governance, recognizing the diversity of the nonprofit sector. I would encourage people to take a look at that. As I said repeatedly, there are one and a half million nonprofits, they're not a monolith. There are very few absolutes that we have about board service, but here's one I will share with you, which is that if you're exploring board service, you want to make sure that the organization has directors and officers' insurance. The vast majority of them do. And if they don't, you should say to them, if you're still interested in joining their board, that you would want to join and that you would pay for that as your first contribution, because it's not expensive, but it is so important for organizations and for everyone who's already on the board.

Then the other piece, I think, is really to know that there are three primary duties under which all the other duties fall, which are the duty of care, which is saying that you would do what any prudent individual would do to direct the operations of the organization; the duty of loyalty, which says you don't have a conflict of interest while you're there. While you're there wearing your board hat, you are there solely and exclusively for the wellbeing of the organization; and then the duty of obedience, which really is just your commitment to go along with everything that the board has agreed to and to support the organization and its mission going forward. So those are sort of some of the primary pieces I would focus on. And again, happy to share other resources with anyone who's interested.

Dan (15:56): Yeah, those are great resources, and I think a great kind of primer for people in joining this. On that insurance, what happens when you don't have that in place? I have some imaginations on my end of this, but what happens when you don't have that?

Stephe (16:09): Yeah. I mean, there's personal liability for nonprofit board members if they are aware of the organization performing badly, but it has to be pretty egregious, to be honest. I mean, I can only think of two examples that I'm aware of. One of them was a senior living facility where individual board members were held liable for damages that were pretty severe, when they were repeatedly, at meeting after meeting after meeting, talking about the fact that they were providing substandard care and did nothing to address it. So they were aware of it and sort of ignored it. I mean, I'm assuming they didn't ignore it, I wasn't part of their deliberations, obviously, but they had documented that they knew there was a problem and yet didn't address it. I mean, it's the same as managing any sort of HR function. We have to support people, and we have to document that we're following the rules.

And if we document that we're not following the rules, we need to document the remedy that we've done. So that would be an example, but it has to be pretty out there. There are Good Samaritan laws that protect in most instances, but I'm not a legal expert, so I just use that as an example.

Dan (17:23): No, it's great. Thanks for sharing all of that. You alluded to this at the beginning. We've talked about this before a bit, and I find this fascinating, of board service as a form of learning and development. That's not something that people might traditionally think of as kind of traditional leadership development course or training or that kind of a thing, but it can be really powerful. How do you think about that?

Stephe (17:44): I think that there's a breadth of different learning and development opportunities available to people. My experience has been that there's a whole array of those that fall within the service. And by service, I mean, like, volunteerism, that kind of service, and that arena that some organizations acknowledge and sort of get, and that others, I think, unfortunately miss out on too often. PwC and Taproot Foundation just this past March released a piece of research called Human Skills at Work, and they found in their research that on an array of human skills, like, not tech skills, because we've all spent a lot of focus on tech skills and developing notes, but on an array of human skills, they found that pro bono service outperformed traditional learning and development, 70% as compared to 58%. And some of this is inherent, right? When you think about it, it's like, well, of course, if I need to figure out how do I work with people on different teams and different functions, if I work solely in my business unit, getting on a board of directors with a group of people from a lot of different companies and different perspectives, inherently that's built in.

There are other ways, though, that we could be more structured about that. So for instance, if in succession planning we're looking at someone who has really amazing financial acumen and is really great at the bookkeeping side, or at keeping the books and the spreadsheet, but isn't necessarily as good at framing those conversations as strategic discussions for people in other business units or other business partners. Board service is a great opportunity if you end up on the finance committee of a board, where you're like, I've got the numbers, I get them, I really get them deeply. But, like, translating those into English for the rest of us on the planet, and vice versa, taking the strategy conversation from the board meeting and making sure that that information gets fed into what the finances look like, so that when people are looking at spreadsheets as part of their board report, they're saying, like, oh, this really does speak to our strategic initiatives, or doesn't. And if it doesn't, then how do we remedy that?

So there are these real life experiences that are inherently within board service, but others that can be built upon with really way less risk oftentimes than what happens in the workplace, and also with greater benefit to the community at large. So I think that's, like, one example that I would give of how board service can be a benefit. But the same is true of pro bono service or skills-based volunteerism, where people tap into the skills that they have, where they may not be able to really use that muscle day-to-day in their job, but at a nonprofit where that muscle is absent, they're able to flex it pretty powerfully and grow it with feedback from, again, a diverse group of individuals who are their peers on their board. There's a lot of that can happen inherently, but if we're intentional about it, it could be even more amazing, I would argue.

Dan (20:42): So there's so much here to cover with it. There's something about something being real and being not this kind of, like, made-up scenario-based thing that I think is particularly interesting about this for learning and development, of just a real group of people. It's not one of these, like, simulations or something. It's not one of these, like, made-up case studies. You're actually part of working with a group of people who are not people you would normally work with, on new and novel challenges, and giving back together, and growing your network, and all of this kind of stuff. I think there's something very real there.

Stephe (21:17): Yeah, absolutely. And in addition, I mean, there's so many other pieces that are being addressed at the same time. I mean, we live at a time when we are all starved for connection. We are starved for purpose. So it's this perfect storm, if you will, of, you're, instead of doing a simulated exercise of some sort, like getting into the weeds of a real issue that matters and having impact while you're doing it, I think is a really powerful piece of this. And I think that all too often the resources for these things exist within so many of our employers. I mean, the talent development folks are oftentimes in a very different vertical than the corporate social responsibility or the employee volunteerism folks, and figuring out how to create an opportunity for them to speak is really challenging. Everybody in both of those verticals has very little staff and very much to do.

It's not like anyone's sitting back eating bonbons, waiting for somebody to come hand them a solution. But we started doing this workshop with some other intermediaries called The Human Edge that was designed specifically to address building these human skills. And one of our corporate partners that we work with, the CSR head there, she's a one-person shop at a Fortune 50 company, brought one of her talent development folks with her, and afterwards she said to me, we have had a conversation I've been trying to have for nine years. And she's like, I've tried to bring this to them, but I haven't known how to frame it. So when I bring it to them, they look at me like I have three heads. And the talent development folks aren't aware of all the offerings that do exist within this employee volunteerism realm. So now those two have had subsequent meetings already and are talking about ways not just to do board service.

I mean, they're talking about manager training. They've built in some team building activities that are a service initiative, where they're having an impact in the community while they're doing this team building, as opposed to doing a ropes course or whatever other team building they would've done. So I do think bringing together these two fields and having conversations is really critical. Obviously that needs to happen more and more internally, and if people have advice on how to crack that, then we are all game. But we're excited about where we've seen this go, and we expect it to take off more.

Dan (23:32): Yeah. Speaking of bringing together two different worlds, you're at this interesting cross-section, or intersection, of the private sector and the nonprofit sector. And I think these are more interconnected than people realize, often here, but what is it that you think private sector thinking, so to speak, can bring to the nonprofit space, and what do you feel like nonprofit sector thinking can actually bring back to the private sector?

Stephe (24:00): Yeah. I mean, I think that they both have a huge amount to give to the other. Again, neither is a monolith. And I think that part of the big problem is that our little human brains can only manage so much. So as a result, I think that we really try to put things in categories. So one of the examples we often share is, people are really interested in volunteering with Habitat, or being on Habitat for Humanity's board, and we may find out there's not a vacancy on their local Habitat's board. For some people, that would be the end of their board service. And in our efforts, we say, well, what was it about Habitat that you're most passionate about? Is it affordable housing? If it's affordable housing, here's a list of 20 other organizations that do affordable housing. And the vast majority of the times that we do that, the people who we work with had no idea that these organizations existed, because they weren't high profile, but the work that they're doing could be just as meaningful.

I think part of this really is about people widening their aperture and understanding a little bit more about one another. I think one of the things that would be really beneficial for nonprofits to understand is that seniority does not necessarily parallel board service, high-quality board service. That it may, in fact, again, using the communications example, it may be an early career or mid-career person who's had a ton of experience with social media or with digital communication, who can offer so much more to what your board's trying to tackle than the senior vice president of communications. And I think that that paradigm really needs to be challenged a little bit, and it's not easy, but that's one that we need to do, I think.

Dan (25:34): So for context for those listening, Stephe and I first met when our grad school class was doing a project with his former organization, Break a Difference, which does a similar thing with BoardBridge, but with volunteering opportunities for corporate employees and connecting them with these nonprofit volunteering opportunities. Stephe, what is it that companies that get this kind of thing right, that really understand the potential and the power of volunteering for their own employees, what do they get right that others who kind of do this in a more performative way, or a more kind of... they don't really get it fully, due?

Stephe (26:13): I feel like there are a lot of organizations who do not have honest conversations with their nonprofit partners. I mean, that to me is the big crux of the difference, right, where they say... I would much rather work with an organization that says, hey, we're bringing people into this conference, they're going to be here for a day and a half, and we've carved out 35 minutes for them to do a service project. Would much rather know that going in, than, we are coming in, we have 1,200 people coming for our conference, they're passionate about housing or whatever the issue is, and then trying to dive into that. I think that there are lots of different parameters, and when people enter the arena, if you will, being honest and open about what their limiting factors are, but also what they want to get out of the experience, I think we all do better.

And I think that many times nonprofits assume, not all, again, it's not a monolith, but many nonprofits assume that they have to say yes to every nonprofit ask, because then they can end up having a relationship, when in fact some of these are not, they're not relationships, they're transactions. And we need to differentiate between the two, and there's room for both, provided both parties agree to them. I think that where we end up in trouble is organizations who think that they're coming with a relationship and what they're really offering as a transaction, and vice versa. And my experience has been that when people are clear about that, and they're clear about what they hope to get, and even pie in the sky, like, dream big, saying, look, I know this isn't really likely, but what we really like is to end up with some of your employees who better understand our work and who want to join us on an ongoing basis, we can have the conversation about whether that's possible or not.

Again, I think that so much of this interaction is transactional, without taking a step back and being clear about why. So there are all these assumptions that go in, and I think those are the places where it gets challenging. So the organizations who really get it are the ones, I think, who say, we have a diverse workforce, some of whom are going to want to do a lot of this, some of whom want to do none of it, and we are going to try to carve out different opportunities where it makes sense with nonprofits who really want to help out with that. And I think that there need to be some, asking some questions. I often see LinkedIn posts or elsewhere sort of slamming the painting of the walls at a nonprofit as a bad thing. And I've seen examples where people talk about, we painted the same wall six times over the course of the school year.

Yes, that is problematic. There are thousands of nonprofits out there who cannot afford to do the building maintenance that they need. There are thousands of nonprofits out there who defer maintenance, or who do not do general upkeep, because they can't afford it. And if corporate groups joined them and said, how can we do budget offsetting efforts, as opposed to, how can we keep 30 of our employees busy for two hours on next Tuesday reading to little kids, I think we would do much better. So I think that both sides of that need to know what they're really good at, and need to really respect what the other's good at.

Dan (29:18): You've talked about how nonprofits are not a monolith, and this is something that is continuously surprising to me, just working in this space, of how many different nonprofits there are out there, how many different types of nonprofits there are out there, and really just exposing people to more and more of these. It's not just the big household names that everyone thinks about. You mentioned Habitat for Humanity, that's a great organization, they do lots of great work, but it's not the only one that's doing even something in that exact issue area, nevermind across the spectrum of issue areas. How do you kind of help people expand their thinking in this? What is out there in the world of nonprofits that people don't typically think about?

Stephe (30:00): So I think that part of this really is helping people to understand, what is the nonprofit sector, and what is it that I'm personally most passionate about? And again, lots of people can't articulate that, but we can start to ask questions. Do you care about puppies more than you care about climate change? If you care about both, that's okay. But if I gave you a $100 bill and you had to give it to one, you couldn't split it fifty-fifty, where would you give it? Those are the kinds of questions that we can ask people to help figure out, get that spectrum from 1.5 million down to maybe a couple dozen. And it's okay to not know. I think that's the other thing that's really important in all this, is for people to understand, if you're a corporate volunteer going into service of any kind, if you're going to go volunteer in a skills-based event where you're like, I'm a communications professional and I'm going to help, knowing that you don't know everything about the nonprofit you're going to go in to help is really a great step, because you don't.

It's impossible to, and it's okay to not know. Having that awareness and being comfortable with that is really key. And to bring it back to board service, I would argue one of the things that we try really hard to do is to encourage people, when they go in, in addition to walking people through the on-ramping process, we provide training. So when you step onto a board, you know, here's what's expected of you as a board member. And even in those organizations who do a robust orientation program, the vast majority of onboarding for folks is really them sitting and listening and sort of absorbing the culture of the board. And we encourage people to not do that. If you're joining a board today, like, you have a new kid card that's only good for a few months, and good governance looks like a diverse group of people coming together and really hammering through some of these issues together and coming to consensus about what's best for the organization.

That's what good governance is. And your new kid perspective, it is by definition going to evaporate. So we really encourage people to ask questions when you go in, and sometimes it won't be a pivotal moment, but at other times you'll find out, like, oh, two or three or four other board members who've been on the board for a while have had that question but haven't really asked it, for a variety of reasons. So I think really a big piece of this is just knowing, going in, that you have a lot to offer, but also that you have a lot to learn, and those aren't mutually exclusive.

Dan (32:25): That's super refreshing. And it's something I hear a lot about from executives who are working with boards, is that there can often be these kind of dominant personality types on boards who can make it seem like their way is the only way, and that they know what they're doing and nobody else does. And it's so not often the case, and it's actually detrimental to the governance of the organization. Absolutely. And it's a really cool perspective, I think, for people joining a board, of, like, no, you're not the new kid in a bad way, you're the new kid in a good way.

Stephe (32:53): Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important too to remember, again, I keep beating us with that horse, that it's not a monolith, but the reality is, even today's board at the Acme Foundation is radically different than the board six years ago, because of term limits. Things change, and there are people involved, and wherever there are people involved, we're going to have negative aspects of this as well. Like you mentioned, the domineering personality. We have to deal with that in our workforce. We have to deal with that at the pickup at school. There are all these places that we need to use these skills, and the boardroom is no different. What I think is different is recognizing that you have a benchmark to be able to go to, to say, wait, wait, wait, wait, what good governance looks like is all of us having different perspectives and addressing this.

So I appreciate, X, that this is what you think, but there are other people who've said Y. So how do we get to a place that really informs how the organization gets governed? That is good governance. And we really try to instill that, so that people feel more confident using the new kid card when they're new kids, but then also speaking up when they're in a minority on a board, from whatever the topic is.

Dan (34:07): Yeah. It's, again, a hugely valuable perspective for people to bring onto their board service. What do you see as the ideal future for how this shapes up, for the kind of corporate employees being engaged with nonprofits? What does this look like in the dream future here?

Stephe (34:27): Yeah. I think that uncertainty has hit so many organizations, both in the private sector and in the nonprofit sector. I think that this is a really huge opportunity for us to sort of go back to basics. I feel like, as we're talking about this, I feel a little vulnerable, that, like, I'm saying, like, really obvious basics, like the Venn diagram of what's good for the individual, what's good for their employer, and what's good for the nonprofit. But the reality is, those conversations don't happen. I mean, if you're in the third or fourth or fifth year of a program running a skills-based volunteer program or a board placement, I think sometimes we forget to take a step back and be like, well, wait, what is it that you really hope to get out of this? And to you, as the nonprofit, what is it that you need from that?

So I think that taking advantage of the fact that we've all been living with uncertainty for a while recently, and it's pretty clear the uncertainty is not going to go away, let's go back to basics and ask some of those questions. I think that the best relationships are those in which people feel confident that they can share what they really need or want, and it requires some vulnerability. I think that that's key. But I also think, again, assuming that we don't all have the answers, I often say, when I'm talking to folks about BoardBridge, we don't do arranged marriages. We are much more like a dating app, because you may be the most amazing person in your field, but if that's not what the organization needs right now, it's just not the right time for you to join that board, or that's not the right board for you.

I think that, especially with high-potential folks, one of the things that happens is, it's not often that we apply for something that we don't get, in terms of leadership development or in terms of contributing to the community. So, to make sure that people understand, this is about really figuring out where's the right fit today, and we don't have a limited pool. I mean, we do, it's not infinite, but it is much larger than you think it is. So let's figure that out, and let's try to find where's the best space that really works for you.

Dan (36:29): You mentioned some resources earlier, in terms of how people can get up to speed on being an excellent board member. Anything else to share on that, or any other kind of resources of any sort that you point people toward for board service?

Stephe (36:43): Yeah. Well, for board service, I think that if somebody really wants help figuring out the mechanics for themselves, I mean, we certainly would love to be helpful to them in that, but if what you really want is content and research on what's meaningful, I think BoardSource is the go-to for that. They're really the gold standard. They're great. I really appreciate what they do. And in that realm of skills-based volunteerism, which abuts board service in many ways, especially for those folks doing this within the corporate service initiative arena, Taproot Foundation does some really great work, and they're coming out with research all the time, but they're also practitioners who really help to figure out, how do we map the skills that you, as a talent development professional, are charged with equipping your folks with? How do we map that to a real service project that has impact in community that really matters, but that really does develop that skill as well?

And we've been doing more, mapping some of the skills in the World Economic Forum Future of Jobs Report to the type of board placements that work, and they're doing the same work, I think, with skills-based volunteerism. So those are two resources, I think, that are really, really valuable.

Dan (37:55): Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's always a good sign as a leader, I think, when people can share, these are other groups who are doing great work, and these are kind of a gold standard on this, and go and check them out. So it's a really good sign, Stephe.

Stephe (38:07): Oh, thanks. We try.

Dan (38:10): Stephe, really tactically, let's imagine that I'm an individual and I want to join a board. What is the whole process here? How does BoardBridge basically do this from start to finish?

Stephe (38:21): Yeah, no, it's a great question. So what we would do is, we would know, if you're coming to us through your employer, we'd know what your employer's goals are, obviously. But if you're coming as an individual, we would work with you to say, what is it that's brought you here today? And then we'd help to massage from you some answers to some really basic questions. What are the things you're most passionate about? What are the issues that you give money to currently, or where you volunteer? We would ask you, have you talked to those folks yet at all? Oftentimes we find that people want to serve in the arena that they're giving their dollars, and for some reason there's this gap between their perceptions of themselves and their perceptions of who serves on the board of that organization. And sometimes that's accurate, and sometimes it's not.

So we've fleshed that out a little bit. Our intake procedure asks people to help. We walk people through identifying their own skillsets as well as their interests and passions. And then we try to figure out, what's the kind of board that you want to be on? Do you want to be on a governing board? Do you want to be on a working board? Is it better to be on a committee? Do you want to work on an international level? Do you want to work really micro in your neighborhood? I mean, again, there's a wide diversity of nonprofits out there, and we try to break that down with people and for people. At that point, we then go and do some research, and we'll come back to you with a panel and say, Dan, here are a few organizations we've thought of. There's no skin in the game yet.

You don't have to commit to anything, but here's, based on what you've said, what we heard, and what we've identified, which of these make the most sense? And at that point, we'll articulate what the onboarding process is. And again, for some of those organizations, it's, you meet with the executive director or with the board chair and have a cup of coffee and figure out whether you are a good match or not. At others, it's a very formal process. We do a lot of research, though, on each of those organizations, so you can make an informed decision. So for instance, if you want to join the Acme Foundation and we find out that they have a $100,000 gift requirement, and that's outside of your realm, then we can take them off the list. But then we can start to dive in, what was it about the foundation that you really loved, and help you to figure out, are there other organizations in that space?

And we don't know all one and a half million nonprofits out there, but we have ties to lots of them, and through those networks we can drill down pretty deeply, pretty easily, and make that more simple for you. And for people, anyone listening could take any aspect of this and workshop it for themselves. I would just encourage them, again, to think through, like, who are you, what do you want to do, and why? And then, what do you have to give? And that last piece, of what do people have to give, I would really encourage people to not undersell there, because it's what we tend to do as human beings.

Dan (41:00): How do you think about these different kinds of boards? You mentioned the governing board, the working board, the committee. What are the different kinds of, like, pros and cons of each of these, if you're thinking about this as someone who's interested in this?

Stephe (41:12): Yeah. I think that figuring out what your drive for doing this is. So I'll just use some examples. If you're somebody who's tutored somewhere and you love this organization, but you want to have an influence on thousands of young people, so you want to get on the board of the national organization that's doing this work, you're not going to be in the weeds, right? It's going to be much more of a governing board, helping the organization to scale and build capacity to be able to deliver in lots of other places. On the other hand, if you're really wanting to do something hyper-local, and you're trying to work with an organization that's either in startup mode or is just beginning to get its legs and start to move from the board of founders, friends and family, into its first governing board that's still doing a lot of the work, you just want to make sure you're aware of that.

You want to know, what is the time commitment you're able and willing to spend? How often does the board meet? Are you expected to be on committees? So I think part of it is, I mean, it's not a simple matrix, but part of it is just slicing and dicing a little bit to get at, what are the pieces that feel right for you? And then I think that playing that off with some other colleagues who are doing board service might be helpful. Or, again, people can reach out to us. We're happy to help people parse out which is the most appropriate for them at this phase of their career.

Dan (42:31): That makes total sense, and appreciate that offer for people. So I imagine this answer is perhaps a bit different depending on who we're talking about. But let's say that you're either an executive of a company and you're saying, okay, wow, this sounds great, I want this for myself or I want this for my employees. Let's say that you're a talent development person. Let's say that you're actually someone who wants to volunteer on a board. How do they get in touch with you and your organization? Who are you really set up to support here, to work with here? How does that all kind of work?

Stephe (43:03): Yeah, absolutely. So we're at boardbridge.com, and people can just fill out an intake form there, but I'm also on LinkedIn, and I'm really committed to this work. And when I say this work, I mean the cross-sector, growing-the-capacity work. So that doesn't have to be through us. So if people are interested in this and have questions about any of the things we've talked about, happy to have conversations and help to direct people to other organizations that are doing this work, or in their own community if they're looking for a local piece that could be better suited to serve them. It doesn't have to be just the BoardBridge model. But if somebody is an employer and they're really interested in helping to figure out ways to get their people more involved in community, either as a talent development strategy or, as I shared with one example, as a networking, real networking, as opposed to going to coffee hours, we're happy to be there and to serve in that role, and people can just reach out to me.

I'm on LinkedIn. As you know, I spell Stephe weirdly, it's S-T-E-P-H-E. So, like, Steven with a PH, but without the N. It happened when I worked at a homeless shelter 35 years ago, and it's just stuck. So I'm on LinkedIn, or people can find this on our webpage.

Dan (44:13): Well, thank you so much, Stephe. This has been super informative. Thank you for your generosity in sharing all of this knowledge and information with everyone listening. I bet there'll be a lot of people who are interested in either bringing something like this into their organizations or in pursuing this kind of a path themselves. So really appreciate it, and thank you again.

Stephe (44:31): Well, thank you, and thanks for opening up one more avenue to sort of bridge these two worlds.

Dan (44:36): Appreciate it. My pleasure.

Stephe (44:37): Thanks so much.

Dan (44:37): Thanks.

Stephe (44:38): All right, be well.