Korinne Ellis on Strengthening Workplace Culture, Growing Emerging Leaders, and Developing Mentor Relationships

In Brief: Korinne Ellis (linkedin.com/in/korinne-ellis-maed-9b8b1837/) joins host Dan Freehling to discuss the importance of intentional leadership and leading with a human-first approach in building a strong organizational culture. They cover underrated ways firms can grow employee engagement, changes in the workforce due to generational shifts, and the challenges and opportunities that come with these shifts. Korinne emphasizes the need for leaders to be open to change, develop a learning culture, and create a space where people from all backgrounds feel seen and heard. She also highlights the importance of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in organizations and the role of intentionality and consistency in fostering these elements. Korinne shares her insights on spotting and growing promising rising talent, drawing inspiration from real-life situations and mentors, and building a personal brand based on mindset, values, and actions.

Recommended reading: "Change Your Questions, Change Your Life” by Marilee Adams.

Transcript

Dan Freehling:

Welcome to Forward-Looking Leadership, a podcast for visionary executives building future ready organizations. I'm your host, Dan Freehling. I'm the founder of Contempus Leadership, a coaching practice that helps organizations develop their leadership pipeline through virtually unlimited coaching for their top rising talent. I'm honored to be joined today by Korinne Ellis. Korinne made her career in the financial services sector and brings world-class executive experience in strengthening workplace culture and employee experience. Korinne [00:00:30] and I completed our master's in organizational leadership and learning together. Throughout our work, I came to deep the respect her tremendous expertise and insight into leadership, culture, and employee wellbeing at the highest levels of business. Listeners, you're in for a captivating conversation. Korinne, thanks so much for joining me on forward-Looking Leadership.

Korinne Ellis:

Thank you so much, Dan, for having me today.

Dan Freehling:

Of course, of course. Thanks for making the time. Korinne, in your experience, what makes for a strong organizational culture?

Korinne Ellis:

I think a strong organizational culture [00:01:00] really starts with intentional leaders. I think leaders who don't just care about the bottom line, but really who genuinely just care about the people who work for them. I have always been an advocate for leading humanly. I never like individuals to see me with my title first, just more so about me treating them with respect and having a conversation with them about various things, which includes getting to know the individual on a human to human basis about their lives [00:01:30] outside of the office. I feel a stronger organizational culture really starts with just leading humanly and also having the gumption to really also give feedback. Sometimes feedback conversations could be tough, but individuals need to hear the truth. They need transparency. So I feel like giving feedback even when the conversation could be tough, it's also very important in building a strong culture and I think also have the will to change when leaders have a will or be open-minded [00:02:00] rather to changing the approach based on the individuals that they engage with will also help because not everyone will respond to an eye and fist approach. So striking a right balance between meeting an individual where they are while at the same time too, being able to communicate messaging an effective manner is super important for organizational culture.

Dan Freehling:

Well, I really love all of that so that treating people as humans first at the same time, being able to give direct [00:02:30] feedback and at the same time also being adaptive. So all of those kind of dichotomies and different approaches to leadership coming together for you and being leaders in a strong organizational culture. Turning to employee engagement, I know there's a lot out there on driving employee engagement. I'd love to hear from your experience and expertise, what are some of the unusual or underrated ways that firms can grow employee engagement?

Korinne Ellis:

Good question. [00:03:00] So to me, nothing I would say would necessarily be unusual, but I do think sometimes it could be underrated and these are definitely the soft skills. Usually in corporate America, we pay a lot of attention to someone's ability to execute. But I feel like in the past three to five years or so, there has definitely been an increase in organizations finding ways to be more inclusive in their approach to really strive for more [00:03:30] equity and belonging. And those things don't get as much airtime as they should because you can't really quantify someone's feelings as you could with representation. So I think the pandemic also really highlighted a shift in priorities for many in the workforce. And companies are realizing how much power employees have today and that they had with that, right? I mean, individuals are really choosing to prioritize their families [00:04:00] versus just staying in the office as they would've before prior to the pandemic. So for me, I think that I wouldn't necessarily say it's an unusual thing, but I say really when it comes to a fact and driving employee engagement is really how do we make employees feel a sense of inclusion and feel a sense of equity and belonging and really being intentional in bringing those factors to life.

Dan Freehling:

So really underrated on that inclusion and equity belonging and the other kind of soft [00:04:30] skills there being really important even in a sort of hard-nosed corporate setting in a way that wasn't really the case in the past and has shifted into that. So in terms of other changes that are recently affecting the workforce, you mentioned the shifts over COVID and more power shifting to the employees in terms of that flexibility and choice, what do you see coming up over the next five or 10 years?

Korinne Ellis:

Good question. [00:05:00] I think the face of leadership will definitely change over the next five to 10 years. As our boomers who hold c-suite positions or higher level positions transition out of the workforce, I think Gen Zs and millennials would definitely have a bigger role in the strategic directions of companies and I think they would, they'll have a desire or find a way to really increase more digitalization in corporate America and the business one on the whole [00:05:30] with more AI and machine learning. And I think they'll also have a greater sense of what's important to people. I think the soft skills of today to me, will become the hard skills of tomorrow and the job aspect where execution and people's behavioral skill or their behavioral profiles will have to start matching and aligning. So usually when you look at someone's resume, you automatically taking a look to see, okay, do they have these technical [00:06:00] skills, et cetera, et cetera.

But to me, interviews going forward will also have to have a huge component of a leader's ability to really connect with the employees, not just their ability to execute and get things done. So I think in the next five to 10 years, I think that would be a huge organizational shift as Gen Zs and millennials are more focused on work-life balance, they're more focused on increased transparency, they're more focused on diversity and inclusion, corporate social responsibility, ESG, et cetera. And some of those factors are [00:06:30] going to bleed into how they lead as well. And they also want to work for individuals. So as you make the work environment a really pleasant place to work as well.

Dan Freehling:

Wow, that's really great to hear in a lot of ways that those skills are going to be coming into play, not just the technical but the soft skills. And I've been noticing the same with a lot of my clients moving into the actual strategic leadership positions, and they're generally in the millennial cohort, but even millennials are now tipping into our early forties [00:07:00] at the higher end and really taking on positions of organizational leadership. So that's really interesting to hear from your perspective. Thank

Korinne Ellis:

You.

Dan Freehling:

And I know you're not a fortune teller, you don't have a crystal ball, but getting very speculative, what changes can you imagine in the business world over the next 50 years?

Korinne Ellis:

Geez, 50 years. Hopefully by then I'll be retired living on the south of France.

Dan Freehling:

That sounds lovely,

Korinne Ellis:

[00:07:30] But in all honesty, I really think that we'll definitely have more digitalization, I think chat GPT and some of these new, I guess new technologies coming on board. I would definitely have a stronger hold. I wouldn't be surprised to see that we'd be leveraging a lot of AI more in our recruiting processes specifically when it not just comes to doing some of the backend work in matching individual's profiles to job descriptions, [00:08:00] but more so also helping individuals conduct some more of the interviews as well. So I'm looking forward to see exactly how AI will definitely help evolve the entire people cycle from recruiting straight through to feedback and development and eventually to when someone exists to role and go into another space. So I think definitely more to see with technology and how we'll really take a stronghold in how we think about people going forward.

Dan Freehling:

That seems to be [00:08:30] the trend now with the way that AI is coming on. I feel like we're at a very early stage of AI's adoption, and obviously nobody knows exactly how that will play out, but as you've mentioned that AI being woven in throughout the employee life cycle and into recruitment and also into that management and feedback and all of that is really fascinating and it opens up interesting conversations of if AI can do much of what's currently considered management, then what is the role of leadership? What's the role of managers and executive

Korinne Ellis:

Team [00:09:00] in future position? Not to be too speculative here, but I'm not sure if you're familiar with the movie iRobot, but I'm always wondering like, geez, if we do give robots so much power, will they eventually take the power, right? Because they may realize we have more intellectual capacity than humans. It'll be interesting to see what the next 50 years look like.

Dan Freehling:

Definitely. And with a lot of my other guests, a lot of our conversations when I get to that question have been tipping into that the science fiction scenarios, and I've been saying [00:09:30] it's funny to talk about it in some ways, but there is a real ability to think through to the future in these kind of fun scientific science fiction scenarios and seeing what could go wrong here and what do we have to be on the lookout for.

Korinne Ellis:

Exactly.

Dan Freehling:

So with all these changes coming up, so the generational shifts, the greater digitization and use of technology, the incoming AI revolution, how can executives [00:10:00] best prepare their organizations for these changes?

Korinne Ellis:

I think they really have to develop an organizational structure that prepares the employees for the change. They also have to have a mindset of being okay with change. Sometimes people say that they're okay with change, but not until when the change really starts to happen, they start to get a little cautious. So I think they really have to work on making sure that they prepare the employees for the change [00:10:30] and that comes through in how they think about succession planning. So their succession planning should be top of mind. They should also I think work on developing a learning culture. So they also create opportunities for their existing employees to enhance and develop their skill sets and also create a space for their incoming potential analysts or new hires to be able to be more involved in certain execution of the work. So what I have observed definitely in [00:11:00] working with more of my peers who are millennials or definitely peers who are Gen Zs, is that they want to be involved in our strategy thinking.

So they no longer want to be involved in just being told what we are planning to do. Once the strategy is set, they want to be invited into the conversation about the strategy. So I think when we think about how executives could start really being prepared is really bringing them along for the journey and thinking about succession planning through those lenses. I think also when we think about [00:11:30] the vendors that we use, the changing consumer taste, figuring out a way to understand how to create more efficiencies and keeping up with their changes as well will be super important for executives to prepare for some of these changes. Because when we think about what AI may be designed to do, you having the algorithms, et cetera, working behind the scenes as we see and detect how consumer changes will impact your bottom line, but it's also how now you're going to lift that information [00:12:00] to make the right decisions going forward. And as soft skills eventually become the hard skills of tomorrow, it's also figuring out how do you position your leaders who are not exactly in high leadership roles just as yet, but how do you position them to also manage those changes going forward? So I think the best way for executives to really prepare for some of those changes that I mentioned before is really developing a mindset of change and preparing the organizations today for that change.

Dan Freehling:

[00:12:30] So really shifting into change is not something that we can avoid, not something we can minimize, but something we need to embrace. And then integrating a lot of what used to be separate functions, so sort of like the succession planning, the organizational learning and development, mentoring and job shadowing and all of those kinds of opportunities for rising talent and combining them into this way to [00:13:00] embrace change, get ahead of change, and make it work for the organization's purpose.

Korinne Ellis:

I see.

Dan Freehling:

That is really fascinating. I love that approach. What other challenges or opportunities do you see with the generational shifts happening in the workforce?

Korinne Ellis:

I could only say, I would say about three things, at least from where I sit and the body of who that I'm responsible for. I think there is definitely a challenge. It's a lot of miscommunication, but this could also be opportunities too, just depending [00:13:30] on how you look at it. But I think challenges could be miscommunication in the sense where many managers may miss the mark on the things that are important to millennials and Gen Zs or their communication style may no longer fit that audience. So by not providing transparency behind their decisions or the downstream impact, they'll definitely be missing the mark on what might be important to the millennials and Gen Zs in [00:14:00] our workforce today. I think also stereotypes. So people as a millennial, sometimes people think that millennials and Gen Zs are quite lazy, but that is not true. I don't think so.

I know I'm of money in my millennial energy. I'm not lazy. I'd probably just see the world through different lenses lens. So I think a lot of stereotypes where they may not say it, but their actions will prove so in that, oh, this person is too junior to attend [00:14:30] this meeting or this meeting should only be kept for these officers and above. But I think those stereotypes, I don't think there's a place for those types of stereotypes and actions anymore. I think organizations need to really do to really embrace the gifts that Gen Z gives us a favorite way to incorporate them more in their decision making processes. And then another big challenge that I think with the current generational shift in our workforce is also just retention. So [00:15:00] I think boomers and Gen X outside of the workforce as parents raising millennials and raising Gen Zs really put a true sense of self-worth in them.

So they learned from the things that their parents put them through and decided when they were going to have kids, they were going to do the opposite. But yet when Gen Z and millennials come into the workforce, their attitude about it changes a bit. So Gen Zs, gen Zs today to me, I'm not going to stay on a team [00:15:30] or in an organization that doesn't align with their personal values. So then to me, and I think that's the beauty about that generation, their parents have instilled such a wonderful sense of self-worth in them that they're not going to put up with some of the things or the headaches of being in corporate America that prior generations did. And I think that's what we're seeing today in instances with quiet quitting. So where Gen Zs, they're trying to [00:16:00] create their own work-life balance by quiet, quitting. So I think those to me are some of the challenges when you think about the generational shift in our workforce. But for me, given that I work in the workplace culture and experience field, these are also opportunities for me to learn, for me to figure out, okay, how do I get ahead of these things to make sure that we are creating a space where all generations are feeling seen, are feeling heard, but also given [00:16:30] bodies of world that fulfill them as well.

Dan Freehling:

I totally agree with all of that. I think it's so well said and such a positive spin on things, and you're a millennial and in the highest levels of executive leadership, and I think that's something that people don't necessarily realize in their head. I think there's still kind of this idea that millennials are college students or millennials are recent grads, and it's been a number of years since that's been the case. And then I've even noticed among my millennial [00:17:00] friends and millennial coaching clients that there is this kind of turning against Gen Z in some ways of like, oh, they're coming in all of a sudden they're so different. I love your positive spin on it. They're different and that's fine. We have to accept that and figure out ways that work for the culture that they're coming from and all of the different factors that have led [00:17:30] generationally for them to be thinking in the ways that they are. And how do you work with that and how do you embrace the strengths that brings and how do you figure out ways that go against, I think the quiet quitting is something that doesn't seem like that will really make sense for long-term strategic growth of your career and leadership and all of that. But how do you understand the underpinnings of that and make it so that it's something where we can figure out ways that work for [00:18:00] the incoming Gen Z generation precise that work for millennials, that work for everyone else?

Korinne Ellis:

Exactly. I mean, for me, my entire team are millennials and Gen Zs, and a lot of my conversation during the day is in pop cutter references and stuff off of Instagram, but which is fine by me because it's given me an opportunity to also step into my authenticity because I don't want them just to see me in my title as their boss. I want them to see me as someone who connects with them, but at the same time too is able to guide them and speak in [00:18:30] a way, a lingo that they understand. I think it's quite, which is why for me, it's an era of opportunity. I'm also learning, I'm changing my communication approach, whereas the style I would take with my boss might be a little bit more formal. Working with my team gives me an opportunity to still get the message across, but not necessarily in so much of a formal manner. So I definitely see the shifts in generation as an opportunity for me simply because I enjoy working in that space. [00:19:00] So I guess more to come as Gen Z continues to come into our workforce and grows in their spaces and in their careers to see what shift there that they'll make, overall

Dan Freehling:

Millennials don't get a pass on learning and adapting either. So there's been so much and for very good reason in recent years on diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging in organizations. I know you've been in that space, and I would love to hear in your experience [00:19:30] what you think really moves the needle, so to speak, on fostering these elements in organizations.

Korinne Ellis:

I think I'll definitely go back to the response I gave on the first question intentionality. I think leaders have to be intentional in their recruiting of diverse talent, their onboarding processes, the feedback and development opportunities that they give, and then they have to couple that intentionality with consistency. So during the pandemic in light of George Floyd's passing, we saw a lot of [00:20:00] organizations rethink their efforts for diversity and inclusion. And while many of them have had DNI efforts, they felt that there was room for them to enhance and grow those models going forward. So with that, we saw an increased level of commitment to de and I. However, in light of the recent affirmative action ruling I face, some organizations are going to reevaluate where DNI sits in their organization, and ultimately [00:20:30] they'll have to also rethink their recruiting approaches. I think some of them where they may have had a strong presence in some school campuses, they definitely have to rethink how they want to have that level of involvement going forward.

But I think organizations who are truly intentional and have figured out a way to pivot and to still evident the dedication to increasing representation to ensure [00:21:00] that their organizations look like the communities that they serve is super important. So really being able to demonstrate that intentionality to say, yes, there may have been a change in our legal atmosphere, but that doesn't change our intentionality and our commitment to this, and we are going to be consistent in our efforts. It may require us to be a little more creative. But at the same time too, we are still digging our toes in and being deliberate [00:21:30] in our effort to demonstrate that diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging is super important to our organization because they believe in it. So I say, but nonetheless, when it comes to inclusion, equity and belonging, however, I think it really does require more effort simply because you can't really, as I said before, you can't really quantify or measure how someone feels that you can't measure what exclusion feels like, right? There's no exclusion meter [00:22:00] to say that his level of exclusion is lower than my level of exclusion,

Dan Freehling:

Which is deeply uncomfortable for some traditional managers, right?

Korinne Ellis:

So I think mid-level managers, those who are not quite in the CC suites or those who are not quite at senior levels, but those who really are on the front lines of managing individuals, they really have to be intentional about ensuring the way that they manage goes back to really communicating and connecting [00:22:30] with the individuals that they're managing. They have to really be mindful of their biases, be mindful of any microaggressions, and think about how their background or the intersectionality of their backgrounds rather could really find a way for them to connect with the humans to see past someone's race, their gender, their sexual orientation, but look at the human and find ways to connect with that human. So I think to conclude on this question, because I could go on this topic clearly, but [00:23:00] I think just really to move the needle there really requires intentionality and consistency.

Dan Freehling:

I just love the intentionality point and linking it back to that human first leadership approach that you mentioned earlier as well, and seeing all of us as not disparate but connected. So DEI is not some separate function that you have to do for legal reasons or you have to do for public relations reasons. And I think from the employee side, I would imagine that [00:23:30] folks can feel when an organization is doing it out of necessity when they're doing it out of that obligation to the lawyers or to the public relations people. And when it's real and genuine and you're actually trying to grow that culture, I bet that feels a lot different. Yeah,

Korinne Ellis:

You feel it, right? And I think you feel it as a manager too, because you're feeling that there's a trust there. Your employees start to trust you because you've just created a psychologically safe environment for them to thrive in. And I think it works [00:24:00] on both sides. So I think yes, employees rely on their managers, their managers have a lot to do in their career progression. But at the same time too, I think managers also trusting their employees will also work for a very culture that thrives and flourishes because you're really creating a space where we see each other as humans first. Yes, my title might be a little bit different than yours simply because of my years of experience or the work that I do, but at the same fundamental level, [00:24:30] I'm still a human just like you are. So I think definitely I can't stress enough just being consistent, not letting any videos see that it's all fake because people could tell when you're faking it. So I think the consistency is the show and guaranteed way of demonstrating that this is not just something for show, but this is really truly me as a manager really caring about you and being intentional in how I help navigate your career with the feedback that I give, with the development opportunities that I provide. [00:25:00] So yeah, I can't stress enough about the neo intentionality and consistency when thinking about D Nni,

Dan Freehling:

And that's been such an ongoing theme throughout my other conversations with leaders. I admire too of that. A lot of this stuff is easy to agree to in the shiny theoretical sense. Of course, we want to foster DEI and where the real work is day in, day out, showing up as a person, building trust on your team and doing that with that consistency that you mentioned, and [00:25:30] that is really what moves the needle on these issues. Yep,

Korinne Ellis:

Yep.

Dan Freehling:

So you mentioned you have a team that's predominantly millennials and Gen Z. I imagine you've developed a keen sense of spotting and helping to grow promising rising talent. What are some qualities you look for in identifying and helping to grow that promising rising talent?

Korinne Ellis:

I think their mindset. I could teach [00:26:00] people, I could teach you how to be strategic. I could teach you our processes, how to abide by our methodology that we've created for our departments. But what I love is their mindset. So if they proactive have a like, oh, I don't know what this is now, but I know Google is my friend, I could figure it out. Great. If they have a mindset where they think about the team's agenda versus their own personal agendas, [00:26:30] those are definitely one of the things that really attracted me to totalizing talent. I think also having an attitude for learning. I think one of the best things that I'm realizing as I move up the corporate ladder is how much or how important rather coaching and development is. And the best part of my day is when I have an opportunity to work with my associates and my associates are roughly three or four years out of college, so they're still [00:27:00] in the baby phases of their careers, and it just makes my heart sing when I have to put time on their calendar or vice versa to work them to think through a strategy.

So for example, now I'm working with one of my associates to really bring her into how we think about our recruiting processes.

She asked me, and I think because of the comfort level that we have, she asked me, I don't want to just do work once [00:27:30] you figure out the strategy, once you give me the work, I want to sit in the strategy meetings with you to figure out to see how your brain works because she wants to learn how to develop those skillsets. And I was like, say less, no problem. So I think having an attitude of wanting to learn is super, super important. I think it is just one of the fun things because I don't have to drag you along for the journey. You want to be a part of the journey. And I think one of the last things that I would say on this is also [00:28:00] where upcoming talent realizes the importance of psychological safety in themselves and realizes that while I may be their manager, but also creating a safe space for me as well as a leader to also be my authentic self.

I like to thrive. I thrive best when I don't have to worry about code switching. I thrive best when I don't have to worry about what other people may perceive of me and because I thrive best in those environments and make sure to create [00:28:30] an environment like that for my team as well. But in doing so, I think they also realize the importance of creating that space for me as well, because when I'm in a good space of being my authentic self, I'm able to shine and also give them the information that they need. So I say those are the three things I look for in upcoming talent are really their mindset, their attitude towards things, their ability and their eagerness to learn, and that they're also, they're valuable creating a safe space for me, even though I may be their manager.

Dan Freehling:

[00:29:00] Such great points that it all ties in so much to your previous points too, of this idea of not just the throwing and a pre-form strategy and saying, okay, now jump and execute it. It's bringing people in on the strategy formation process and that helps them to develop that executive mindset, that enterprise mindset. Precisely. How does this impact the firm? How does this impact our team?

Korinne Ellis:

Correct. Yeah, because for me, I'm already thinking about [00:29:30] succession planning. So for me, I don't anticipate that I would be in my role forever. I would want to take different parts with my career and try different things. But for me, for the body work that we care for that we enjoy doing, I do would want to make sure that it is in right hands. So I think it's up to me to not wait until they become a VP or they become a little more senior to direct them with strategy. I feel like I want to help these little trees [00:30:00] grow now so that when they do become mature trees, that they will already have that foundation. So that is why I think about it. I don't think about myself as one of those leaders who believe in gatekeeping information and not seeing the value in investing in my talent. I want to invest in them as much as possible

Dan Freehling:

And what a secure and confident approach to that. And it just comes across so clearly that you're self assured in your own abilities and you're not trying to kick down on [00:30:30] people and keep them in their place, rather you're trying to grow them, as you said in the tree metaphor. And I think that's an interesting point that a lot of more insecure leaders don't really get is that you can't really be promoted if you're not backfilling your own role with a lot of great in-house talent. And it does limit your potential to move on to different things and bigger and better things if there's no one to replace you and people feel like you're the only one who can do this [00:31:00] kind of

Korinne Ellis:

Role. Correct. I just feel like there's no place for that thinking anymore because then you become a dinosaur because you're not learning, you're not evolving. You're so focused on staying where you are to prove that you're the best, that you're shortsighted on, where there's potential for you to grow and not find opportunities that may take you to a different level, expose you to new opportunities as well. So yeah, I don't believe in gatekeeping information. Gatekeeping information. That's [00:31:30] definitely not my style of leadership. I want to bring my team along the journey and recognize their efforts going forward. I think that's another big thing too, right? Recognizing and rewarding individuals. I don't think it takes anything out of me to say two words, thank you. And honestly, I take it a little too fast sometimes where I just tell them, oh my gosh, you're the best.

I can't believe that you're on my team. So I always be like, because how I see it is that my role is to make my boss look good, but [00:32:00] when my team does things to make me look good, it could only be better. So I feel like factoring recognition in that process too. And I think that probably goes back to one of your previous questions about the generational shift, seeing how much tools could really go in making individuals feel a sense of inclusion, a sense of belonging, a sense of equity by actually recognizing them, seeing them, and thanking them for their efforts.

Dan Freehling:

[00:32:30] And that's such a tangible takeaway for ways because people always ask, how can I as an individual support as a manager say support DEIA at our firm? And that's really recognizing when people of all backgrounds are really contributing and show up as their best selves. And just saying thank you is just such an easy and simple way to do that. It's something that gets glossed over a lot in practice it

Korinne Ellis:

Does, because people say that, oh, well, they're just doing their job. [00:33:00] That is true. They're doing their job, but they could do this job anywhere. We often hear the saying that people don't leave their jobs, they leave their managers. So if you as a manager just think that yes, they're just doing their job, they're like, oh, I could do this job anyway. So for me, I want to retain my talent. So I have no problem in listening to their needs if they have a need to be a part of our strategy conversations [00:33:30] to leverage my remit and to leverage my platform to find those pockets of opportunity for them to learn that skillset. Yeah, I believe definitely investing in them because I would want them to stay. I don't want them to leave.

Dan Freehling:

It's such a great point. And you're so right. I mean there's a global talent market now, and especially with remote work coming online, people can really work from anywhere in the world and for anywhere in the world. And they're not limited to a handful of firms that do whatever kind of business [00:34:00] you're in in your region. They can go anywhere and it's no longer enough to just kind of think they're lucky to have a job, and when they do their job, I'm not going to say anything of praise or thanks to them. It's only when they go way above and beyond that I'm going to say anything. Yes,

Korinne Ellis:

Exactly. So I think that just goes back to how well boomers and Gen Zs raise their kids who are now in the workforce, because I could imagine that as parents, they're really drowning into their teams. For [00:34:30] them to be self-assured as to who they are, but when they evidence that into the workforce, somehow it takes people by surprise. I'm like, people, but you raised these kids to think this way. They're just doing what their parents told them to do just in a corporate sense. You just know how to figure out how to change your thinking to match that. So I definitely believe in creating a space where individuals could thrive, telling them, thank you so much for the hard work that they're doing because I really appreciate it. They're definitely, [00:35:00] sometimes they gave me ideas that I didn't even think about. I was like, oh, wow, check you. I love this. So I can't found them enough for the bodies of will that they helped me with and for also contributing their ideas to move our team forward.

Dan Freehling:

You mentioned it earlier too, and I really don't think I've ever heard that framing of just what a great job the baby boomers and the Gen X did in raising these different generations. And I [00:35:30] think that's something that gets so glossed over in the conversation, and it's really true that that was a reaction to how they felt their parents had raised them. Precisely. It's something where I think when folks from those generations are showing up as their best, it is in that sense of really encouraging and all of this that's come to fruition somewhat in the millennial generation and even more in the Gen Z generation. Correct.

Korinne Ellis:

That's [00:36:00] why I see it. Right. So they did a fantastic job, but you can't complain now when they're in the workforce.

Dan Freehling:

That is so interesting. And you mentioned something earlier about the psychological safety and trust going both ways. So you as the manager or the leader trying to foster an environment of psychological safety, and I think most people are probably familiar with psychological safety from listening, but it's [00:36:30] that sense that you can have honest conversations in the workplace and not feel like you're going to be personally attacked for either bringing up positive points or even constructive points. So it really fosters the sense of being able to show up as your full self without fear of retribution. You mentioned that that goes both ways too, that you actually feel that from folks who report to you and that helps you to become a better leader. I'd love to hear more on that. Sure.

Korinne Ellis:

So on my team, I'm a millennial. [00:37:00] The individual who reports to me, she's also a millennial, and the two associates that report to both of us are Gen Zs. So for me, I don't like to lead with my title. I like to individuals to see Korean first. So yes, I got to where I'm, because I'm strategic in my thinking, I'm influential, but the biggest part of also getting to where I am too is how I make people feel. And that was definitely [00:37:30] some of the best advice I could have gotten from the head of my department when I reported to her. She said that how people walk away from the interaction with you should be always your top of mind. And because of that, I don't like leading with my title first. I like leading as Corin phase. So me as the individual, I am quite down to earth.

I love a good laugh. I love people. Does that mean that all people and I will connect? No, but I do understand [00:38:00] that. But fundamentally, I do love engaging with people, and I think it's super important to take the time before any of my meetings, for a 10, 15 minute laugh and giggle, I want to hear about what you did over the weekend. I want to hear about what did you and your family do. I want to hear all those stories because I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do. For example, my team knows that I love the holidays. They know that when it comes to November, my Christmas tree grows up definitely at the top of November. I'm a bit behind this week. [00:38:30] But nonetheless, those are things that they know fundamentally about who I'm as a person. And I smother them in a sense with adoration because they have skill sets that are different from mine that compliment me at the same time too.

So I think for me, demonstrating who I am as a person by making my jokes, whether I laugh at them by myself or they laugh at them with me or at me, I'm not sure sometimes, but they're laughing. But nonetheless, [00:39:00] I want to create a space where they enjoy me first. They get to understand who I am first. And in doing so, it creates a space for them to have honest conversation. I have had my associates tell me that sometimes they feel overwhelmed, and when they feel overwhelmed, that's when I want to step in even more to give them that support. I want them to feel and to know that I am there and they don't have to worry. [00:39:30] And my team is also a team of all women, not intentionality just by design of our team. And in doing so, I also want to make them feel empowered.

Sometimes in corporate America, women sometimes lose their voices, not because they don't have one, but sometimes they don't know when or where to use it because the space either wasn't created for them to use it. But I also want them to know that working with me that there is a space for your voice here. And I always remind them to step into that power, to not let [00:40:00] their titles dictate their ability to perform, but perform as who they are as the individuals. Those gifts let those gifts shine. And when you wear your title being an associate or being a director, being a vp, the end result of you already having those gifts, right, of you being promoted is just using those gifts that come innate to you that have been enhanced over the time due to the experiences that you've been getting to get to the next level.

But never want my team to think with their titles first [00:40:30] for them to say, oh, I reached out to this executive director and he didn't respond to me. And I was like, what? He didn't respond to you bad human behavior. He should treat you with just basic respect. And I hate when I have to step in to a conversation because someone didn't respond to my associate to leverage now my title to get stuff done. That bothers me to the core because that there's no place for the hierarchy of thinking, right? I feel like if someone's asking something on my behalf, it's because she's doing so to do a body [00:41:00] of work I need her to do. And I think it's simple respects to respond to their requests. So to go back to that may be a long-winded answer then, but nonetheless, I felt it's super important for my team to get to know who I am first because I know that I'm not always going to be have those days where I'm going to be, where I'm going to be resilient.

There are days where I'm going to be in my most human self, where I may be sad. There may be days [00:41:30] where I may be angry, there may be days where I too might feel overwhelmed, and I need them to create a space for me as well to feel that way because I'm also human. I'm not just my title or their manager. I'm human first. So having that reciprocity in psychological safety is super important because I know that there'll be days where I would need them to see me just as human and to give me that grace.

Dan Freehling:

That's really beautiful, and that's something I've admired about you since [00:42:00] we met in grad school too, is that you really show up as yourself and you bring this lightness and sense of humor and all of these various things that you're working on your personal life that bring you joy to the forefront. And you combine that with a really sharp strategic sense and a really great business acumen and all of these other qualities. And I think when leaders can combine both showing up authentically as their selves and as [00:42:30] a really strong and sharp and smart manager and leader and thinker, that that's when you can really drive some of these big results as a team and bring people along with you.

Korinne Ellis:

Thank you so much, Dan.

Dan Freehling:

I know we've read a lot of books through our time at gw, and then I also imagine that you probably read a lot and listen to a lot outside of that, what's a leadership book or other resource of any kinds that you [00:43:00] find yourself coming back to the most often? Oh,

Korinne Ellis:

I go back to one that we use during grad school, right? I'm not sure if you remember it, Change Your Questions, Change your Life.

Dan Freehling:

Yes, I have it on my bookshelf behind my computer.

Korinne Ellis:

I love this book. I mean, when we read it during grad school, of course we were reading it through a lens for leadership, but when I reread the book, for me, there's just so much useful gems that this book has that could apply [00:43:30] to any situation, not just you as a leader, but you in all forms of your relationships. So to me, this book to me, I have it in front of me with all its many pages tucked in because I like to remember pages that I need to go back to, should I need to think about something? But this will change your question, change your life. Because when I think through strategy, one of the things I tell my team is let's talk through the problems first. What is the true problem that we're solving for? And let's go [00:44:00] down that route of asking the why behind it so that we could really come up to the right question. We want to ask for us, then be able to solve that problem as opposed to solving, just putting a bandaid on something superficially. So this book by Marilee Adams, change your question. Change Your Life to me has been a Bible in grad school and it is a Bible to me today.

Dan Freehling:

What a great suggestion for people, and I know it has the appearance of being new agey and fluffy, [00:44:30] but as you said, so many gems in that. And I think that the choice map is one that really stands out to me of a gem in that book of that choosing to be in a learning mindset rather than in a judging mindset. Correct.

Korinne Ellis:

Yeah. So

Dan Freehling:

For me, that one is just so big

Korinne Ellis:

Precisely, I think because in a learning mindset continuously. So when I spoke about the challenges that I mentioned before, when it comes to I think was it, what was it? Gen Zs, the generational shift in [00:45:00] the workforce, which is why for me, I was able to put a spin on it because I'm like, this might just been an opportunity for me to learn something new. So this is definitely me putting into practice some of those tenants that have pulled out from this book.

Dan Freehling:

So you mentioned a bit of outside of the business world where you draw inspiration with coming up on the holidays in your tree and all of that. I think it's just so important for leaders to not only be immersed in what they're doing at work and [00:45:30] what they're learning in school and what they're reading in terms of leadership and management books, but drawing inspiration from the world at large and other places of fun and joy for them. Where else do you draw inspiration as a leader?

Korinne Ellis:

Yeah, I definitely draw inspiration from a leader from real life situations. I too draw a lot from my mentors. I think listening to them and understanding their thought processes as to how they approach [00:46:00] certain situations is super important. But I also draw a lot from my team. I listen to my team a lot. I make sure to go across to my team for laughs and giggles every day. And honestly, there are times when you know have work to do, but you're just letting mind frame to do it. And I go across them to also tell them that, guys, this might be too much here, but I just want to go home. So for me, I draw inspiration honestly [00:46:30] from my team because I learn a lot from them and I learn a lot from them in the sense as to how they handle situations, how they're able to pivot, how they're also able to educate me at the same time too.

So I think it's just a matter of not just looking or sitting in my space as a leader and just pulling from what I know, but I also just leverage the environment and the factors all around me from my own mentors and leveraging my team to be their mentee [00:47:00] in a sense, even though I may manage them. So I think I just have a real life lived experience and I try to pull out the best out of those situations and use those as catalysts going forward to be the best version of myself as a leader and just also as me Karine.

Dan Freehling:

Yeah. So I love this, again, both having mentors and listening to your team and showing up in that mentor role for your team. I think some people might be curious on [00:47:30] your thoughts on how to either find a mentor or develop a mentor relationship with folks. I would just love to hear any thoughts you have on how to go about that for people.

Korinne Ellis:

So I think it's twofold, right? So I think it's who and what do you want this in a video in your life to be for you? So if you're in a corporate environment and you work with this person and depending on where that person sits in the organization, do you want this person to be a mentor for you or do you want that person to be a sponsor [00:48:00] for you and the sponsor and a mentor play two different roles in your life. So the sponsors, that person who speaks on your behalf behind closed doors, they're advocating for you to get that pay increase. They're advocating for you to get that promotion. They're advocating for you to get that new responsibility to use their influence to put your name forward so that you'll be the one selected for certain things. So your sponsor, they're doing the will behind the scenes for you, but your mentor should be with you side by side as [00:48:30] you're going through things to give you the guidance that you need to tackle things as they come.

So I think when it comes to thinking about a mental, it's also doing some self-reflection to ask yourself, I would like this person to be a mentor, but really think about it based on where this sit in the organization. Do I want them to be a mentor or would they better serve me as a sponsor? And in doing so, right, you can't just go up to someone and say, Hey, I like your style. Could you be my mentor? Right? [00:49:00] I'd be very right. But what you can't do is talk about things that you like that they exhibit that you would want to continue growing in. So for example, if you saw someone who has a really nice way of making people feel seen, and that is a skill that you want to also develop, how could you become more empathetic? Then you say that I really appreciated how you handled the situation where you demonstrated such a high sense of eq.

[00:49:30] I'm being empathetic in that situation and I think that's a skill I want to develop. Would you mind helping me develop that skill? So I think it's not just going up to them, but also really figuring out a way to connect with them and seeing them what it is that you want them to learn so that they could figure out how to help you. But when it comes to a sponsor, however, it's a little different, right? They're technically using their relationship collateral, their relationship capital to help you move forward. So with that, you [00:50:00] would definitely have to demonstrate how they could have trusted in your brand, what you bring forward. They need to also trust and have a sense of familiarity with you, right? To make sure that you wouldn't also negatively reflect on them as well if they're putting their good name to really push you going forward.

So I think when individuals think about developing mentor relationships, really think about do I want this person to be a mentor to me? And if it's a mentor, [00:50:30] what it is that they possess that I want to grow in? And then if someone could be a sponsor for them, figure out how to build a familiarity, how to make sure your brand is speaking for yourself, your brand, not so much a negative reputation, what your brand is so that they will then be able to trust that whatever relationship capital they leverage on your behalf, it is going to be a good investment.

Dan Freehling:

What an important distinction there between mentor and sponsor and realizing [00:51:00] that the sponsor is really leveraging their political capital in the organization on your behalf, and you really need to show up and convince them that you're going to be able to step up to the occasion and provide that value back and reflect positively on them. You mentioned the brand building. I'd love to hear a little more on that too. How do you envision building a brand? I feel like people have this skewed sense of it as building a social media brand or something is the only thing that counts as brand [00:51:30] building, but how do you envision that?

Korinne Ellis:

Well, I think building a brand starts with your mindset, what it is, or how do I want people to perceive me? How do I want people to feel every time they engage with me and what people could possibly learn from me, at least for me, when I think about my brand, I think there are three words that I always like to remind people about. And when I speak with students, I take it from a different perspective. [00:52:00] Take it from a perspective of thinking, who is a superhero that they admire and why do they admire that superhero? So if they have a superhero that's Batman, for example, Batman wasn't necessarily born with any supernatural powers like Superman was, but he was able to leverage his resources, which was the wealth that his parents left for him to develop and invest in technology to be able him to have those powers naturally.

So if you admire Batman [00:52:30] for him being creative, for him being self-made for him, being innovative, then those are things that resonate with you. Then those are things that probably represent you as a person and that translates into your brand. So when you think also about how your family reaches out to you, so if your friends and family reaches out to you consistently because you are a good listener, because you give some advice, if they're able to rely upon you to know that you'll always come [00:53:00] through, that's also part of your brand. So it's thinking about how you show up and things that also align with your value that really connect and make your brand, and then it then follows into how you follow up those things with your actions, right? So for example, if someone sees in you that you are really good at making people feel warm and welcomed, then your consistency in doing that regardless of whoever you meet, is super important.

Dan Freehling:

That is [00:53:30] such, again, to the refreshing point of views of brand building of it goes beyond sort of the superficial and really gets into the depth and the nuance of how do you make people feel when you're in their presence, and what are these soft skills that are actually the real hard skills of today's age, and how do you intentionally showcase what you're so good at. Korinne, this has been a really wonderful conversation. So many insights for [00:54:00] leaders to pull out from your experience and from your knowledge. So I really appreciate you joining us. I think a lot of people will love this conversation and it means a lot to me that you were willing to take the time to join me for this.

Korinne Ellis:

I am so happy, Dan. Thank you so much for inviting me, and I'm very happy to definitely share my thoughts and thank you once more.

Dan Freehling:

Thanks so much. So listeners, thanks as always for taking the time to listen in. We'll put the show notes and link to any resources that Korinne mentioned or that I mentioned at contempusleadership.com. [00:54:30] And if you've got something out of the show today, if you could share it with a colleague or leave a quick review on whatever podcast app you're using, that will go a long way in helping to spread the word so others can find us. And Korinne, thank you so much again.

Korinne Ellis:

Thank you so much, Dan. Have a good one.

Dan Freehling:

You too.