Rokhaya Mané on What Recruiters Really Look For and the Leadership Skill That Future-Proofs Careers

In Brief: Rokhaya Mané (linkedin.com/in/rokhayamane/), a global talent acquisition advisor and leader with over 15 years of experience in talent acquisition and strategic HR, joins host Dan Freehling. Rokhaya shares what recruiters actually want to see in candidates today, from storytelling that clearly articulates value to evidence of agility, alignment, and future readiness. She explains how recruiters use LinkedIn and applicant tracking systems (ATS), and offers sharp advice on networking and outreach. For leaders, Rokhaya makes the case for lifelong learning as the top skill for navigating the future of work. She also unpacks the cost of values in leadership, as discussed on an episode of her podcast Rok On!.

Recommended reading: “The Squiggly Career” by Helen Tupper and Sarah Ellis, “How to Find the Person Who Can Help You Get Ahead at Work” Ted Talk by Carla Harris, and “The Power of Vulnerability” Ted Talk by Brené Brown.

Dan Freehling (00:01):

Welcome to Forward-Looking Leadership, a podcast for visionary leaders building future ready organizations. I'm your host, Dan Freehling. I'm the founder of the coaching and consulting practice Contempus Leadership, all-in for the social impact leaders you want in charge. I'm honored to be joined today by Rokhaya Mané. Rokhaya is a global talent acquisition advisor and leader with over 15 years of experience in talent acquisition and strategic HR across corporate executive search and nonprofit, driving people-centered transformation across organizations and continents. Rokhaya’s passion lies in building inclusive workspaces and unlocking human potential through people initiatives. Listeners, whether you're looking for your next job in social impact or leading an organization you're in for world's leading expertise on talent, acquisition leadership and so much more. Thanks for joining me on Forward-Looking Leadership, Rokhaya!

(00:49):

Thank you so much, Dan. It's a real pleasure and an honor to be here. I've been following your podcast with interest, especially the way you spotlight leadership in purpose-driven organizations and also the future of work. So I'm truly looking forward to this conversation.

(01:06):

Thank you so much. The honor is mine and thank you for taking the time to share all of your insights and expertise with listeners. So first, you've worked across all facets of talent acquisition. You've worked agency, in-house, public, private, nonprofit sectors. From the recruiter perspective, what really makes an applicant stand out to you?

(01:24):

It's a great question and thank you very much for it. And so first of all, just to give some insights about myself, many people in this field, I fell into it almost by chance and I don't think there is a real formal degree that leads you to talent vision, but what keeps you here is really the passion and a strong belief in human potential. And you need deep curiosity, active listening, and also empathy. And you also need to be performance driven because talent work isn't just about helping people, it's about aligning what that potential of those people can be to organizational goals, to impact and business results, whatever the discipline is, whatever the industry. So for me, talent has always been about bridging people and also performance. And that's what gives me energized every day, especially in the impact space where the stakes are high and the work truly matters.

(02:32):

And to your question, what really makes someone stand out? It connects with what I just said. It's about how the people are able to tell the story of their value. And it's not just a well-written CV, it's their overall positioning. And the CV is the tool, yes. But what really matters is how candidates activate that tool to tell a clear compelling story of their value. So every time I review a profile, I always ask myself what have they helped improve? What have they moved forward? And in today's social impact market, I think competition is really intense and organizations are facing multiple and serious complexities. Things like operational pressures and leadership and skill gaps, compliance demands, and constant transformation. And that's really why recruiters are not just looking for experience, they are looking for signs of agility. They're looking for purpose alignment, but also strategic thinking. For me, the most memorable candidates, they are able to use the language that resonates with the organization's mission and also the jobs mandate. They are able to frame their story again, but around value and relevance, not just their responsibilities. And also they need to show that they understand the why of the role and not just what exactly that they're going to do. And it's a blend of clarity, intentionality, and strategic alignment. And it's that what moves someone from qualified to a must-interview candidate.

(04:17):

That's such great advice. What do you mean by showing your value?

(04:21):

So basically when we talk about a CV or resume for North American, your CV is how you represent your value. So let's say you want to apply for a role. A role exists because there is a problem or there are problems and organizations, they need to solve that problem. Your value is to just say, here's my CV, it's not just a biography. I'm going to show you that I can be the right person to solve your problem and this is my value and it's backed by this expertise, these experiences, these results, and all of the things that I've done in the past and how I will be ready for the future challenges that you might face that are unknown right now. So all of these things are your value that you need to represent in your CV.

(05:11):

So really bringing together everything you've done but toward that organizational problem and to the reason the role exists in the first place and trying to get to the heart of that if you're on the job seeker side is really where you should be focused.

Rokhaya Mané (05:25):

Yes, absolutely.

Dan Freehling (05:27):

In the first place, how do you get in touch with candidates? How should job seekers approach you? How do you go about finding them? How does that all work?

(05:35):

Many, many ways. Actually. We have the well applicants, they apply on jobs that are published on the Koya websites. Whether you are a recruiter and you are working in a recommend agency, you are a consultant there or you are working in-house. So pretty much you have the, also have the different job boards. You have of course LinkedIn right now it's a must. So recruiters, most of them right now they have LinkedIn recruiters. So it's a specific tool of LinkedIn whereby you can engage with candidates and start having a discussion, but then you search for them via LinkedIn, but you have many, many other job boards, some that are regional localized, some others that are global. You have in the social impact world for example, dx, you have many other job board tools and you have impact pool, et cetera. Just to name a few at the top of my head because it depends on the level of the role you are looking to recruit someone.

(06:45):

It depends on the discipline, it depends on the industry. When you start to do a search, you definitely need to go about your strategy, what exactly you are going to do in order to attract the best candidates out there. And when you are a candidate, you need to know that again, the competition is high because it's not through application only. Even though right now the application tools are really, really great, but the problem is you get to have so many applicants at once and in order to diversify your outreach, you need to make sure that you are going to look for your network, the network of the people, also the employees who can be the best advocates. You have employee referral programs within organizations, and then all of the job boards that I mentioned earlier and LinkedIn and other tools that there on the market.

(07:46):

So kind of an all of the above approach for the job seeker and really looking at the employee referrals in particular, making sure that your LinkedIn is up to date, that you're applying and looking at these various job boards, all of that kind of stuff.

Rokhaya Mané (07:59):

Absolutely, yeah.

Dan Freehling (08:01):

So how should job seekers engage with recruiters? Who do you want to hear from? How should they approach you? All of that kind of stuff.

(08:07):

So something I always say it should be obvious, but recruiters are people first. And in most cases, lemme tell you, they manage dozens of roles and hundreds of candidates all at once and they have a lot of pressure. So outreach that is intentional, that is respectful and to the point is far more effective than transactional notes like here's my CV, keep me in mind. Gens are, they'll not necessarily keep you in mind. So a thoughtful message does not have to be long, just needs to show clarity and effort. For example, how does your profile align with the kind of roles that they handle or what's the one clear thing you are hoping for? Is it insights? Is it a referral, is it a feedback? Even better if you can reference a recent article they shared or wrote a job that they posted or shared interest, it shows that your message is not copy pasted and that you've done your homework.

(09:14):

And also don't underestimate the power of relationship building over time. Some candidates only engage when they need a job, but the ones who check in and check in now and then or share relevant update or support your posts, those are the ones you remember and others that you remember as a recruiter are those who connected with you through network. It was easier. So it could be daunting to just say, okay, should I send a message to this recruiter who I don't know at all, but if you do what I say, maybe they can remember you and they can think of you if you have applied. But then the other way to engage with recruiters is through network. In one of the episodes of my podcast Rock On, I mentioned about the power of weak ties. So it's within your network. People who don't necessarily share you are not in the same bubble.

(10:17):

They can help you actually reaching out to new opportunities, to new people, to new information basically. And if you get to be someone who network, who networks well, you can get to be in touch with future recruiters, people who can help you, who can think of you, who can remember you when there is a job, when a job is published on the web for example, that means couple of weeks or couple of months before they have started within the organization to think about or to talk about that need. But when that arises the work, most of the times they know. So if they remember you through a connection or a discussion or whatsoever or through someone, they will be able to kind of recommend you. So it's not just a one shot, one opportunity, it's a long game that you need to kind of play and don't hesitate to contact the recruiters if you do it well. Of course intentionally with authenticity, they will definitely remember you.

(11:21):

Such great advice for people. And I think something that is really confusing and can lead people to do that really transactional kind of outreach. And even though you can't necessarily be in direct response to every single person who reaches out or every single applicant, it's something where a lot of recruiters are very decent people who really care about this kind of work and want to do their best by people and giving them that opportunity, making sure you're engaged with 'em and staying in touch for the long term is where you want to be.

Rokhaya Mané (11:49):

Absolutely, absolutely. 100%.

Dan Freehling (11:51):

Could you walk us through what LinkedIn looks like from your perspective using this LinkedIn recruiter tool? How do you go about looking for candidates very tactically with that? So

(12:02):

You can use keywords you have where the people can be based, you have again the keywords you have, the job titles you have, how many years of experience do they have? How long did they stay in their last job in the last role? It could be anything. LinkedIn recruiter, I remember when I started to be in the recruitment field, it wasn't too much information there and it was difficult. It was really hardcore headhunting that we were doing because sometimes it was just the name that we were getting. But now the tool is so powerful that you can filter on every single aspect, even the language spoken and also the network and also whether or not the person can have the skills that we are looking for. You can filter down to the skills. Yes, it's basically that. And you have just in Google, you have different pages of results and like everyone, even when you do a search on Google, you will kind of focus on the first two or three pages of results because sometimes they are the most relevant and it's pretty much the same with LinkedIn recruiter.

(13:17):

So after the three pages, you want to go back and tweak your search and maybe try to find people who are, if you've tried from 15 to 16 years of experience, maybe you want to make it larger, et cetera. And something that is really important to know for job seekers is that the more you use LinkedIn, the more you could be, you are likely to be part of the first results pages. The algorithm works like that. So it could be what you post and how often do you post, how do you engage if you do something or if you do three different things per week, it could be alike, it could be anything. So it kind of rewards usage of the tool. So actually ultimately from the recruiter, from the LinkedIn recruiter standpoint, you have better chance to be visible when there is a search that is conducted and then you can show up.

(14:18):

And of course when your LinkedIn profile is up to date, you have more chances of being contacted because if you put information of again what you've done, it's an indication that not only the person is open to the job, which by the way, you can specify whether or not you are looking for a job actively or passively as a job seeker. So they have up to date information about what you've done in the past and what you have been doing, what you are doing currently. And then they can engage and they can send you what we call emails. They don't necessarily have your contact details, but when they do send an email, you receive it in your LinkedIn messaging system, but also even on your email address that is attached and linked to your LinkedIn. So it's again a really powerful tool that every single recruiter, I think right now, especially on the global scene, they definitely use LinkedIn recruiter.

(15:14):

Such a great tip for people. And it's something I hadn't fully realized. I was talking to another internal talent acquisition person for another podcast episode and he mentioned the same thing about being active on LinkedIn actually moving you up in the algorithm. And I think that's an amazing tip for people and it's something I don't think is very much common knowledge.

(15:33):

Yeah, exactly. People don't necessarily know that information, but I saw that LinkedIn is making a little bit of effort to kind of bring awareness or people they don't know the impact of that. They just get the recommendation from LinkedIn to just engage more or post more or do anything on LinkedIn to make it active. But yeah, really as any social media you get the reward by more using it by being an active user in some shape, in some way or another.

(16:05):

Absolutely. Do you care about Open to work? Do you have any thoughts on that?

(16:10):

Absolutely, because again, one of the things with LinkedIn recruiter is you get as a recruiter, you will get statistics. And among those data and metrics you have the number, like your response percentage. So when you have candidates who are interesting for you and who mark themselves as open to work, of course there's a high chance that they'll respond to you because they are looking for new role. So it indicates that not only you updated your profile, you are looking for a new job. And yeah, it will help us understand better where you are and when the conversation starts, then we can know the context, we can try to understand exactly what you want to do, why you are looking for a new job. Is it that you want to change discipline, you want to change job? What exactly is your context at the moment that pushes you to be open to the market?

(17:11):

It's such great advice and making that clear and making it clear that you're on the market and available is actually a good thing from the recruiting side of the house. So for cover letters, I know that different recruiters are all over the place on these of how much they value cover letters, what emphasis they place on these, what are your thoughts on them?

(17:29):

I would like to compare to before and now. So definitely before cover letters were a must, it was mandatory. But if any listener who's a job seeker is right now listening to this episode, they will know that if they are looking for a job right now and applying cover letters are no longer mandatory, it's optional. So what it means is that you can choose not to put forward your cover letter, but if you do put your cover letter, it has to be personalized and purposeful because here is your chance to connect with the employer on a human level and you can put again your story, you can put your talents, hidden talents there and generate couple letters are often ignored and made. Sometimes they can also hurt your chances if it's too generic. And then the best ones, they directly link your story to the employer's challenge to their problems that I mentioned before.

(18:35):

And a good cover letter doesn't just repeat your CV, it's not about it, it's about showing why you care about the role, why you care about the organization, and how you can help solve their specific issues and show that you've done your homework about the history of the organization and also the things that they're going through right now or what you're trying to focus at the moment. And then connect your unique value, whether it's like I was saying, whether it's hidden talent or your learning agility to their immediate needs. And a great cover letter should be really strategic because it builds a bridge between your story and then their missions and their value.

(19:20):

I love this metaphor of the bridge, having this be that linkage for people. And again, just really great advice I'd encourage people to really hear is that these generic AI generated

(19:32):

Pullback

(19:32):

Cover letters are not doing any good.

(19:35):

We can see from a far distance that this is generic. You have to show authenticity in whatever. So again, if you are sure that you want to put a cover letter, make sure you do it. Yeah, make sure you have clarity and this is you, it's your identity.

(19:52):

No amazing advice. Again, the ATS, the applicant tracking system (ATS). So this has become sort of a boogeyman for people on the job hunt and there's a lot of uninformed information out there. There's also a lot of kind of scammy people trying to sell you a resume rewrite based on this, how does the ATS work from your perspective and how much focus, if any, should job seekers take in trying to beat the ATS in any way?

(20:19):

I have one specific advice for beating code. The ATS is just simplicity, but I'll come more to that. Basically ATS applicant tracking system (ATS), it's a filtering tool. If you focus way too much on it though, you can't have a controlling because there are so many ATSs out there, many, many, many. You have Workday, you have greenhouse, you have smart recruiters just to name a few. There are a lot of them that organizations use. And the thing is they all work differently, but something that is common to them is that they don't like complexities. If you want to kind of beat the ATS, and again, it's just a filtering tool. You have those that have implemented ai, which make it maybe easier for the recruiters to scan some of the information. But the ATS basically, let's say a role gets a thousand applications.

(21:22):

So what the ATS can help the recruiter do is just filtering, again, almost like the job boards or the LinkedIn recruiter, it helps filtering. So you want, let's say someone who speaks fluently French, I could just use a keyword French. So this happens so many times that when I need to recruit for a role where we need someone who speaks at least two language English and something else, when you write a keyword regarding the second language, then it filters down to maybe 20% of those applicants. So that means sometimes, I mean a lot of times people they just apply without, they're just taking chances. And then yeah, the ATS is there to make the job of the recruiter easier to try and filter. So what it means is that you really need to be, again, authentic, you need to be intentional with your CV and your application and all of the information you put out there because chances are, if you don't make sure that your CV is well written or some keywords or not, there are also information or not typically easily recognizable, then you might not be seen.

(22:44):

And ultimately that's what we all want is to be seen. So when it comes to how the at s works in terms of, so basically ATSs, like I was saying earlier, they don't want complexity, they don't replace human judgment for sure. But what really works with them is don't use too much columns and tables and things like that because it won't be able to passe your CV and get the information that it needs. So formatting is really important for ATS, and you also need to be strategic and again, authentic and weaving the key words, speaking the same language of the job description because ultimately that's what the recruiter is going to look for.

(23:33):

So this very high level pass at, okay, we need French or we need this other keyword specific skillset for this role, it can knock out a number of applications that don't have that, but it's not ultimately the thing that moves a candidate forward to the hiring team. There's still, it's used as a filter for recruiters and their teams to weed down people into a reasonable number of applications to review

Rokhaya Mané (23:59):

The true review. Absolutely, yeah.

Dan Freehling (24:01):

And then you mentioned weaving in the keywords. Do you have any advice on how people should think about doing that? Is that you just naturally weave them in as part of a strategic resume as you had indicated? I know a lot of people are wondering if they should have a whole section of basically keywords. What do you think about that?

(24:20):

So let me give you an example. You on your CV, you have a part where you have the skills and the competencies. It could be a specific tool that you use or it could be a method or a technology. So you'll mention it in your CV and then might maybe we'll look for it as a keyword. But also like I was saying earlier, when you have tables and columns and things like that, the ATS might struggle to recognize the words because it seems like the ATSs head, it seems like an Excel spreadsheet. Keywords, again, will help you to be part of maybe the filtered candidates, the one that will remain to be at least reviewed as you mentioned earlier. And the ATSs, they definitely don't try to trick you or to block you, and it's just based on the content, the structure and the keywords that you mentioned in your CV.

(25:19):

And then let's say once they get to a number of 30 people or even a hundred people, then they can spend a little more time in trying to understand better the value of each person's CV. Because those numbers, those narrow down candidates at that point, the ATS doesn't really work anymore. It's the human's judgment that will take place there. So it's just as I was saying, the only way to beat down the ATS is to make sure that you are authentic, that really not only do you think that you could do the role, but you really have what it takes to do the role. So when you have that mindset, you'll build your CV upon the job and then chances are when you do that, your CV will become part of the narrow down profiles that will be reviewed. So that is really, really important to understand.

(26:17):

And then up to that point, you need to make sure that your value will be visible and recognized by the recruiter because the recruiter has a list of requirements that they need to make sure that the candidates have, and then from a hundred they get to 30 and then getting to 20, et cetera. And then there's a long list that is created, a long list of recruiters, and then they can start to have a conversation with hiring managers about the CVs that really check the boxes, those strongest cvs out there. And then you can start to be maybe hopefully part of the ones who will go on the first or next stage. Anyway,

(27:00):

That's beautifully said and such important context for people to recognize. And the spray and pray approach obviously doesn't work for something like this where there's this initial filtering and then there's actual human review and then it gets through to the hiring team. And it is much better to be on target and authentic as re Kai is saying, and make sure you weave in the keywords and include them. But if you're on target, they're going to be in there and you're going to make sure that you have them in there.

Rokhaya Mané (27:25):

Absolutely.

Dan Freehling (27:26):

For the global social impact job market, I know we're in a really unprecedented time right now and it's in a lot of turmoil and nobody has all the answers for it. I would love to hear what trends you're noticing for that.

(27:40):

So I think that the demand for impact is really high at the moment. It's slow, but the demand is really high. But resources and available roles have not kept pace in what we are seeing right now. So add to that, you have the rise of remote work, which has globalized competition, and you get one of the most saturated talent markets in years. You have right now so many qualified and really brilliant people out there open to the market, but the market is saturated because the organizations are looking for people who can wear many different hats because of the pressing challenges that they're facing. And for me, what has changed is the hybrid roles that are on the rise. So like I said, just how you can blend skills across functions like excelling in communications and partnership in program design and also in strategy and digital and data confidence.

(28:44):

It is a real differentiator right now because franzi in these tools along with comfort with ambiguity can signal future readiness. And last but not least, mission alignment. It matters more than ever. Technical expertise is the baseline, but purpose fits adaptability and also a collaborative mindsets are so essential. So now being qualified isn't enough. It can get you in the door, as I was saying, maybe part of the narrow down candidates, but what truly gets you noticed is how you position your value and how well you align with the organization's future and how clearly you connect your story to their mission and what you're trying to do. So the best candidates, they will not just check boxes, they anticipate challenges ahead and they can demonstrate that they are ready to meet them. So pretty much just show that you are future ready and know that the world of work is evolving so fast and employers are asking, can this person adapt? Can they learn by any agility of learning and can they lead in ambiguity? Because this element has shifted, it has changed so much that you definitely need to be able to lead in ambiguity.

(30:13):

So that intersection of skills and back to your point of what is the problem that the organization is really looking to solve and position yourself at that intersection, able to wear many hats but not this pulled back generalist who could theoretically do a number of things. It's really laser focused when you're working in multiple skillset areas. Did I hear that correctly?

(30:34):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And most importantly, the future, again, it's about yes, you are going to come and be ready to solve the current problems that we have, but also the unknown challenges that we'll face in the coming month or in the coming years and the fact that the organizations now, they know that they have ongoing transformations because you need to shift gears when the impact solutions are different every six months maybe. So things are not linear and you need to be able to be agile and shift when needs to be. So it's not only about the present issues, but everything like are you future ready? And that means are you able to adapt? Are you able to always stay ahead and bringing solutions multiple once if possible when there is disruption or when there is a shift or change, whether it's internal or external. It's all of those things that are going to change right now.

(31:38):

Such an important point. And not just focusing on what you have done but what you can do and bringing both of those together as Ika is saying. And I really, really recommend people pay attention to this Ika, what's a leadership skill that you consider essential for this future of work that's emerging?

(31:56):

There are many, but one that is really important right now is how you are able to learn fast being a lifelong learner. As I was saying right now, there are many challenges that will arise in the near future for anyone, for any organization. So you need to stay sharp and in order to stay sharp and anticipate, you have to have knowledge. And we live in a world right now where knowledge is abundant and accessible anytime, anywhere right at our fingertips. And your learning needs to be crafted by your own self. Many organizations will put in place so many learning and development tools, they will give you money for when you want to do a certificate or when all of that is great, but at the end of the day, it has to belong to you. You need to know exactly what are the knowledge is and the know-hows you need to have.

(33:00):

So the real differentiator for leaders is not their ability to find information, but how quickly they can transform that knowledge into action and bring others along in the process. That notion of collaboration again. So the essential leadership skill for the future of work for me is being open to continuous learning and own that and then applying that knowledge in real time alongside your team, especially in the context that is constantly evolving. So the core message I would like to convey and highlight is that lifelong learning combined with values like humility, the ability to keep growing, listening and adapting is really important. Fast learners are not just solving today's problem, they are ready for tomorrow. And professionals, they should focus not only on what they've accomplished in the past but what they're capable of learning and applying next and it's methods, it's ways of thinking. And not only accumulating certificates, which are really great because you get to be up to date about what is happening, what is applied right now, but show your learning capabilities by staying open to new methods and ways of thinking and of course values, they really truly matter.

(34:31):

Real learning beyond the credentials is such a powerful takeaway and that being one of the main leadership skills that's going to be essential for people in this future of work. So thank you so much for sharing that.

(34:42):

You're welcome.

(34:44):

So you have a great podcast rock on that I recommend leaders check out. It's really fantastic. And you have an episode where you speak about the cost of values and I found this particularly insightful. Could you share with listeners what this means for them as leaders?

(35:00):

Yes, of course. So thank you very much. So that episode was deeply personal and I'm so grateful that it resonated with so many people and actually it was part by a quote that stayed with me. You never know what your values are until they cost you something. And it really made me pose and reflect, do we really believe in our values only when they're tested or only when it's convenient? Values are so important, especially in the impact world because at the end of the day, what we do in the impact world is bigger than ourselves. We have to have passion, we have to have a commitment to what we are doing. So when you do it with those values, it could be empathy, humility, impact, co-creation, you name it, et cetera. It is really important. It has to stay at the core of what you do every single day.

(35:57):

Then in leadership, you have this tension that is shown all the time. For example, you have a top performer who might be toxic. So as an organization, do you protect the numbers by doing nothing or do you protect the culture by taking action? And that's what the cost of values is about the questions that you ask yourself all the time, the difficult and uncomfortable choices that will reveal what we truly stand for, not just what we say that we value, but not every value has to cost something to be authentic though let me be clear. Because we live our values daily in small choices. It's how we listen, how we give credits, how we include others, et cetera. These are proof of consistency. But when values do cost us, whether it's time, whether it's status or even money or opportunities, they can show then the deeper level of integrity with your values.

(37:04):

So evidence shows what we usually do on a daily and costs shows how far we are willing to go when it's really hard. And this perspective is incredibly relevant in hiring and also in leadership. Even if someone has not faced high stakes test of values, we can explore hypothetically how they might act in those moments of whether or not this is costing them something, whether they've reflected on their core principles and how they prioritize when values and comfort collide. So for recruiters and for leaders, this matters a lot because people are watching more closely what you do under pressure than what you say in calm moments. And these are the type of questions that you can have during interviews, especially in the impact and purpose driven organization because trust is built all broken in this value testing situation. So for organizations, it is not about to just state values.

(38:10):

They need to build systems that reward integrity, courage, consistency, et cetera. And values should not just look good on paper, they should shape decisions when the state are high. And when you are an organization who states, again those values that you have and that are important to you, that means you want to keep the promise, you have to showcase it in the daily for your employees. And when you are a candidate or future employee, you are expecting to see those values and you yourself, you want to make sure that you are showing those values consistently, but also when things can be hard. So I can go on and on and on about this topic because it's like I said, it's really personal and I think that it raises so many more questions, but I am definitely here to listen to what the people have to say about this topic.

(39:10):

Yeah, I would definitely encourage people to reflect on that and we'll talk about reaching out to Ika after, but we'd love for people to engage on this and what the values really look like when they're enacted versus spoken and when you're willing to pay a cost for them. And I think this year, especially in the social sector, we've seen the tide go out and that reveals a lot about organization's values, different leaders values when they're spoken versus when they're enacted and looking forward, it's going to be more important than ever for people to be able to actually stand by their values even when it costs them something.

Rokhaya Mané (39:46):

Absolutely, yes.

Dan Freehling (39:47):

You mentioned on organizations putting the systems in place to really support leaders acting on their values and support the organization in encouraging values-based decisions. What does that look like in practice for orgs? I don't know

(40:03):

If you've seen in the past few years or past few months, culture and engagement has become a big discipline within the HR or people and culture. It's actually now, as you've seen in most organizations, we don't no longer say human resources department, but people and culture department because it's part of the culture, the values, and it's the north star of any organization. So you have on the daily, it's about how you make sure that the people who are working in your organization resonate with the values and the values need to be in action. For example, when it starts with the onboarding, actually it starts with even the recruitment process, but we'll talk about that maybe later. But for sure that's where everything starts because you showcase, you show to the world to the prospective employees that these are the values you stand by and they make sense to you for your mission and the goals you want to reach.

(41:08):

And then you recruit the people. You have to have an onboarding and an orientation process that will truly underpin the values in the action. And then it has to continue. It definitely shouldn't stop at the onboarding there. It's on the daily and you always need to have maybe update sessions whereby you inform everyone. And sometimes you can get in some organizations who don't necessarily do that. You have people who've been in the organization for the past, I don't know, five years. So if you don't do that process of updating, you have the newcomers who come and they get that onboarding values are being talked about, et cetera. But actually in reality, they don't see those values enacted. They don't feel like the people have it. So that's why it's so important to act on those values that were stating. And again, these are promises that you should uphold.

(42:11):

People in the organizations need to be aware of the values on a daily when they have events, those values with the partners, those values with any stakeholders, anyone, not only between colleagues, it's really important. And the more you practice it, the more it will transpire in all the interactions that you will have with any of the stakeholders. And then that's when any employee who's been in the onboarding process orientation process after a couple of months, then they will say, oh, okay, so this is really what they stand for. And they enact on that and they make sure that on the daily people leave those values and act on them. And I've seen evidences and signs and proofs and they put emphasis on it by doing some post surveys to check whether maybe sometimes it's like twice or three times a year that organizations now do post surveys where you have different questions.

(43:14):

And among them things that are related to commitment and engagement and values, that's where you fully understand where you stand as an organization and as an employer and how you also treat your candidates, even those who did not make it in the end is really truly important because those can be, your advocates can say, even though I did not get the job in the end, I really saw the value of listening, active listening during the process and I kudos to this organization. And that's also how you help build your employer branding And on the daily, it's basically yes, how you enact those values and it's really, really truly important.

(44:02):

All such really important points for leaders to keep in mind. And the organizational brand being affected by the recruitment process I think is very unintuitive for a lot of orgs. And they think of this as a completely separate thing, but you're so right. This is a very serious interaction of somebody who's trying to trust your organization and wants to join it and you obviously can't take everyone. And how you treat people through that process is such a reflection and can even a benefit to your organization regardless of the outcome for the candidate.

Rokhaya Mané (44:35):

Absolutely.

Dan Freehling (44:37):

What books or other resources of any kind, it doesn't have to necessarily be books, would you recommend the most for job seekers and for leaders?

(44:46):

I think I read a book recently that really resonated with me. I thought it was really thought provoking and relevant. In any case, it's called The Squiggly Career. It was written by Helen Tupper and Sarah Ellis. It was published in 2020, so it's really recent and it's a modern career development and embracing non-linear path. And it's really important the non-linear path right now because you see that many people are shifting gears or shifting areas that they work in because they are getting to know different disciplines. And now you can be an IT and tomorrow switch into HR and then switch into finance. Because more and more organizations and people understand that it's not good to work in silos. You need to collaborate better. So what it leads is now more and more you see non-linear path. And I think this book is really a good one that can showcase you all of these areas and giving you tips on your career development.

(45:57):

And I would also like to recommend two TED Talk videos. First is the Power of Vulnerability by Brene Brown. It's excellent for understanding human connection in career growth and networking. It was published 15 years ago I think. And it's still really relevant in the context of leadership and job seeking and the future of work and in the age of AI automation and all of that. Being human and showing emotional intelligence is really critical. And the other TED Talk that I have in mind is called How to Find the Person Who Can Help You Get Ahead at Work by Carla Harris. And in Carla Harris's words, you need someone to speak for you in closed door conversations you are not invited to yet. And that's the power of sponsorship, not mentorship. So I remember two years ago when I watched that video, it blew my mind because I never thought of the sponsorship aspect of career development, not only mentorship. So yes, I hope that this book and these two TED Talk resources can will resonate and echo with your listeners and for me, whether you are job seeking, hiring or leading change this moment, ask all of us to be really more authentic, more intentional and more human and adaptive

(47:33):

Here to that. And we will definitely put links into these two TED talks and definitely double down on folks giving these watch. And this is the second recruiter recommendation for Squiggly Careers. So that is the top of my list and definitely recommends that others check that out as well. It's coming up again and again in these conversations.

(47:55):

Yeah, it's really amazing. And like I said, it's really relevant and modern. Yes,

(48:00):

Absolutely. Absolutely. So Rokhaya, how can listeners learn more about you follow along with your work

(48:07):

Through LinkedIn? Sometimes I post some articles, they can know my news and updates through LinkedIn and they can also follow my podcast called Rok On!. So it's not ROCK, it’s ROK. A lot of people make that mistake because it's a play with my first name Rock On so they can follow on Rok On! podcast. So these two ways to stay in contact with me

(48:35):

That's great and would just double down on recommending people. Definitely connect with you on LinkedIn, follow along with that and then also check out your podcast and we'll put links to both in the show notes so people can check those out. And Rokhaya, thank you so much again for taking the time to share all of your insights with listeners. It's much appreciated, especially as people are going through times of very difficult job search period. It's really important to get good information out to people and I really appreciate you taking the time to help me do that.

(49:01):

Yeah, thanks you so much. Like I said, it's an honor. It was a very interesting conversation. Thank you so much for having me today.

(49:09):

Thank you Aya. Hey everyone, I hope you got a ton out of that episode and if you did, if you could please share it with someone who might find it valuable and take a second to leave a quick review on whatever podcast app you're using. Even just the stars is great. It goes a long way in helping others to discover the show. And if you liked this episode, check out our previous episode with Jack Jarret on how talent acquisition really works, ethical AI for HR and why giving first pays off. Here's a clip from it. So in terms of longer term trends for social impact, the social sector, what kinds of things are you thinking in terms of that?

Jack Jarrett (49:43):

A lot of the organizations I have well for are with seeing a lot on digital transformation. So I think we're going to see a lot of NGOs and other organizations looking to build new cap talent capabilities around tech data and communication through those digital transformation piece as well. So that's one area that I'm always conscious I need to upskill in and something I'm encouraging others to do as well to kind of build your experience in that digital transformation side because that's where the future's heading. So whether it be AI skills, et cetera, as an enabler to support people just for organizations. So essentially, yeah, digital transformation is going to be one key area and also seeing a lot more localization of leadership, so more investment in leadership in the global south and less centralization in HQs is another area as well. And I'm starting to see quite a few sustainability and climate roles come through. And I think this is going to increase more in the development sector part, particularly in the European side where I'm based. I'm starting to see a lot more of those roles come through as well. And those partnership models, meaning new roles and skills in co-creation, innovation and systems thinking going to start to come out more and more now. So I think ultimately the sectors is evolving to be more agile and accountable to the communities it's serving. So that's some of the key areas I'm seeing as well.