Dan Perez on Executive Search, Career Psychology, and Why Generalists Don't Get Hired
In Brief: Dan Perez (linkedin.com/in/perezdan), SRI Executive’s Director for North America, joins host Dan Freehling (contempusleadership.com) to share insider advice on standing out in the job market, especially for leaders in the international development space. Drawing on 20+ years of experience in executive search and strategy consulting, Perez outlines the three capabilities executive search firms like SRI prioritize: strategic acumen, team leadership, and external partnership-building. He also unpacks how current funding disruptions, especially around USAID, are impacting hiring trends, and how resilient organizations are adapting. Beyond tactics, the conversation explores the emotional side of job searching that Dan is exploring in his forthcoming book, including imposter syndrome and the “paradox of choice.” Perez shares practical guidance on storytelling in interviews, writing a ‘greatest hits' résumé, and connecting with recruiters effectively.
Recommended reading: “So Good They Can’t Ignore You” by Cal Newport and the writings of Mark Manson.
Dan Freehling (00:01):
Welcome to Forward-Looking Leadership, a podcast for visionary leaders building future ready organizations. I'm your host, Dan Freehling. I'm the founder of the coaching and consulting practice Contempus Leadership, all in for the social impact leaders you want in charge. I'm honored to be joined today by Dan Perez. Dan is SRI Executive's director for North America. He brings over 20 years of experience in executive search and strategy consulting, working with clients and partners including international organizations, foundations, and international NGOs. Dan is also the author of “Wonk University,” the first guidebook on graduate admissions for International Relations and Public Policy Programs, and is writing a forthcoming book on the emotional and cognitive side of career searching. Listeners, you're in for actionable advice on partnering with executive search firms, social sector trends, job search psychology, and much more.
(00:54):
Dan, thanks so much for joining me on Forward Looking Leadership.
Dan Perez (00:56):
Dan, thanks so much for having me.
Dan Freehling (00:58):
I'm super excited to talk with you and try to get some real information from actual executive search folks out to job seekers in this moment. So thank you very much for taking the time.
Dan Perez (01:07):
Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for the opportunity and for all the great work that you're doing with this podcast.
Dan Freehling (01:13):
Thank you. Thank you. So first, what makes an executive stand out to you and search firms like SRI executive?
Dan Perez (01:20):
It's a couple of things. I mean, well first let me a little bit about SRI because we are a very particular search firm, like many search firms out there. We have a particular focus in the international development space. We've been around for 30 years. We work with a lot of great organizations within global development, from international organizations like the United Nations and World Bank to foundations like the Gates Foundation, the Hewlett Foundation, as well as great implementing NGOs, INGOs around the world like World Wildlife Fund care and others. So specifically, we of course look for people that have that international development background that are really passionate about that space and really experienced about that space. And then, I mean, we've talked about this a lot as a firm, this particular question about what makes somebody an executive and what makes them stick out to our clients and what are the things that we as a firm will want to look for when we're doing our searches.
(02:30):
And we've kind of narrowed it down to three particular areas because these are the things that we get questions most about from our clients. And one of them is strategic acumen and how somebody thinks through a strategy, how they think about that larger plan for that organization, how do they think about the vision, and then how does that then impact the planning and the budget for the organization. So that's one. The second, not surprise to anybody, but is going to be team leadership and managing a large team, bringing a team together, mentoring people, developing the people beneath them. Those are all going to be incredibly important. We look for candidates that have really led and managed complex teams, especially given the international development focus, people that have worked on the global level, managing teams across time zones is going to be super important. And then somebody who has a good understanding of their leadership style and how they like to communicate with the teams around them.
(03:35):
And then the third area that we look for is going to be that external focus, that external relationship building and no surprise to people in the international development space, but that definitely ties into fundraising. And as an executive, you are going to be thinking about bringing funds into the organization, helping to grow the organization, but it also goes beyond that. It goes to partnership development, building alliances, advocacy. So anything that is going to be externally focused outside of the organization you're in is going to be very important as people think about the executive roles. So for your audience though, what are the things that they can think about? Maybe they're thinking about moving into executive roles and they want to know what they can develop and how they can get to that next level. I often recommend to people get involved in strategic planning in any way you can within your organization.
(04:34):
Try to be working on things that have that broader organizational and strategic focus. Start work on your leadership, start getting involved with managing larger teams, really start to dig into your own leadership style, your leadership philosophy, and then look for opportunities, kind of mentor and develop people in different contexts. And then that last part is going to be focusing externally, and that's not just fundraising, as I said, it could be building partnerships with other organizations, building alliances, dealing with advocacy, but anything where you're going to be building a network outside of your own organization. Those are kind of the three areas that, again, we get questions a lot from our clients and as people are thinking about what can stand out to a firm like ours, those are really going to be it.
Dan Freehling (05:21):
That makes a ton of sense. So really getting up to that executive space. And I love the tangible things that people can do to start building that. Now you mentioned the international development space as SRI executives focus, what trends are you seeing now in that we all know it's in a real time of turmoil and change and we both know so many people actively on the job hunt in it. I'd love to hear what you're seeing from the executive search space.
Dan Perez (05:47):
And it's a really tough moment right now, and there's no way to get around that. I mean, we've seen of course the devastation of USAID. Not only that, but we've seen governments across the world that have really started to decrease their funding for international development and the related spaces. And so there's really just, its funding is going down and you can't deny that the sector is having to shrink and with that go fewer opportunities, fewer roles out there. And it's tough. And I mean I've seen it personally. I mean, I've been in the development space for a long time and have friends, people close to me that have lost their jobs and of course have seen it through my work with SRI, with organizations that we partner with that have had to very much struggle to lay people off unfortunately, and really think hard about what's next for them.
(06:45):
And then that's just the primary impact. I mean, and then there's of course, there's this whole secondary effect or the work that's going on in the space and the recipients of the fantastic work that the development sector does, and it's just incalculable about what's happening to them. So it's tough. I'm not going to lie. I do. Of course, I'm an optimistic person by nature and I have been very pleased and continue that optimism with the things I've seen. And for, I'm going to borrow a quote that somebody told me recently, which is that the development sector is resilient and brilliant. And I find that very true because of the things that our sector deals with on a daily basis, from humanitarian disasters to poverty, to global health challenges. So this isn't a sector that takes a hit and then gets knocked down. I mean, the sector is filled with amazing people that deal with incredible challenges, and this is a major one that they're dealing with.
(07:49):
But I've seen people really shake themselves off. I've seen organizations that I know through SRI really pivot and find new ways to continue the great work that they're doing. And I've seen organizations that were not as impacted as others even start to expand. And I've seen organizations start to hire again. I've seen organizations look to fill the gap that exists. And for organizations that didn't take USAID funding, they're seeing the opportunity to leverage their other funders and really expand their work. And so this is certainly a tough time, but one that I'm still very optimistic about.
Dan Freehling (08:30):
I love the optimism through this all really specifically, what kinds of organizations in particular are you seeing being able to pivot, being able to draw another other funding, and what kind of roles are you seeing are in the most demand now?
Dan Perez (08:45):
It's really across a number of different sectors. I think there's not any, I think all sectors were really impacted, but what it down to was a few different factors, particularly how exposed they were to USAID funding and how big of a percentage their core budget came from usaid. So organizations that had smaller amounts were able to navigate things a little better or a little more quickly and really make that pivot, whereas others that have took larger amounts of funding from USAID have had to really shift. And that just takes longer. And of course, I think smaller organizations have been able to revamp and pivot faster, whereas larger organizations have had to deal with more challenges, they've had more structures and things that they've had to navigate. But I see a lot of organizations really brushing themselves off and moving forward, which is fantastic to see. Yeah, absolutely.
Dan Freehling (09:46):
Absolutely. So a question I get from job seekers a lot is how should they engage with executive search firms like SRI, executive headhunters like you? How should they very tactically engage with you? Who do you want to hear from? What can you help with? What can you help with? How should they get connected with you? All of those kinds of questions.
Dan Perez (10:06):
So one thing I always recommend people to keep in mind is that we are just one avenue for their job search that we have great access to a lot of opportunities, but organizations always have additional roles, even high level executive roles that they're not always using executive search firms for. So we are a great resource, but we should just be one avenue that people pursue. And one thing to also, I want to remind your listeners is that a firm like mine, we're very client focused. So organizations will come to us with a specific need, a specific search that they need help with. And so we then go to our network to find the fantastic leaders out there that we've engaged with to fill that role. It's just a good distinction because it separates us from other organizations that work with candidates directly and then look to connect them to organizations.
(11:10):
It's just a slight difference, but an important one because people may approach us, but if we're not doing a search that's a fit for their specific skillset, we may not be able to work directly engage with them directly. But that being said, I always encourage people to reach out to us and reach out through our website. We have a portal where people can connect with us, upload their CV so they can get on our radar or engage with us directly via email or especially LinkedIn because we always love to hear from candidates and great leaders in the space. Even if we don't have a search that's open, we can really be supportive for them, give advice, give some guidance as they think about what's next and really understand what they're looking for so that when the opportunity comes up, then we are well placed to really recommend them to candidates and match them with the right role.
Dan Freehling (12:11):
So much there, and I think it's stuff that we take for granted knowing this a bit more, but that is confusing for a lot of people too. And this executive search firms are not going to be the silver bullet to getting you the job you pointed out rightly. You work for your clients, which are the firms that hire to fill these very specific roles. All that being said, I would definitely encourage people to reach out and get on executive's radar, get on these other firm's radar, but don't have them be the only thing you're trying to do and have this be the thing that carries you through the entire job search.
Dan Perez (12:46):
Absolutely.
Dan Freehling (12:46):
So in addition to executive search, you're a really sharp thinker on career development, on the job search, and I know you're working on some forthcoming writing, a forthcoming book on the mental and emotional side of job searching. I'd love to hear what motivated you to explore that.
Dan Perez (13:05):
Oh, thank you. It really, at a high level gets down to, it's connected to the question you asked earlier about what trends I'm seeing in the space. And those questions are super important for people to understand where particular sectors are going or where there are opportunities that might be available. But when it really comes down to it, and your listeners are all fantastic leaders and individuals, they have their own individual journey and their own emotional intellectual things that they're navigating through the job search. And so through my work with SRI and from engaging with so many great people over the years, I've really found is that the mental and emotional side of the job search has such an enormous impact on how we navigate things. And what I've seen is also is that a lot of resources out there on job searching, on finding your next career really don't address that.
(14:11):
I've just seen it as I've navigated my own career in that there's a lot of great resources that focus on the best 10 keywords to put into your resume or what's the best way to navigate a networking event, but they don't talk about the fear, the anxiety, the choices you have to make when navigating the development of your resume or navigating a networking event. And I find it so fundamental to a successful job search. And so I really wanted to focus some more thinking and more writing on that, which has led to this book that's in development. And part of it is also I think that connected to this idea of cognitive behavioral therapy, which is something that is well known in the psychological space. It's something I've gone through personally. And I think there's a lot of ways that our brain doesn't fully understand what we're going through and how we're processing things like fear, anxiety and other important emotions. But really once we understand those and we're able to move past them and really adjust for them, and I've seen it with so many great leaders that I work with, that when they've managed to really understand their own anxiety, the ways that they process information or they make decisions, then they really start to excel not both in their day-to-day leadership, but then how they navigate these important questions around the job search.
Dan Freehling (15:46):
I'm so glad you brought this up, and I've come to this on my own too with my colleague Spencer Campbell who came from the world of recruiting, and I came from the world of traditional coaching and we both realized kind of the same moment that, wait a second, this whole other side is I importance as well. It's both deeply personal, it's both deeply not personal, it's very strategic and tactical and about understanding best practices in the job search. And I think when you can bring both that personal and that deeply not personal side of it together is when we find people have success with this.
Dan Perez (16:23):
Absolutely.
Dan Freehling (16:24):
What's the paradox of choice and how does that impact career search?
Dan Perez (16:30):
This is a great topic to talk about because I think it's something, again that's very underappreciated in today's job search market. And as people navigate the job search today, we live right now in a world of amazing opportunities and almost endless opportunities out there. I mean between LinkedIn and job boards and so many other resources, we have countless opportunities to find great organizations understand different potential career paths. And what's interesting is that we think that should make things better, but what actually turns out to happen is that we get super anxious, we get overwhelmed, and it's like why? You hear these stories out there of people applying to hundreds of jobs and then just getting frustrated and burnt out because they think that with all of this choice that things will be easier, but it's actually very overwhelming. And there's a famous experiment around the paradox of choice involving jam in a supermarket and that basically researchers would give people 20 plus choices of jam to buy or they would give them four or five, and you think the people that have more options for jam would be better off.
(17:53):
But no, it turns out that that number just overwhelms people. And so they don't end up buying jam. They're unhappy with their choice and compared to the people that have just a few options and they end up more likely to buy jam and they're happier with their choice. And so what I really like to coach people on is that you've really got to start narrowing down your options, really start being super selective about what you focus on in your job search. Really only engage with two to three open applications at a time. Really make sure that those are the highest quality, best fit for you. Don't just fire off your CV two hundreds of roles. I mean if you're applying to that many, there's, you've got to be more focused. You've got to be more specialized because it gets down to that idea is that if you are applicable to these hundreds of jobs, then you're probably not applicable to any of them because you're not thinking clearly about the things you want, you're not prioritizing enough. So I really urge people I partner with to focus on that, be very selective, really narrow down, and so they can really limit the paradox of choice. And you think that might be cutting yourself off from opportunities, but as people start to narrow down, what they realize is that there's huge arrays of opportunities within those very select things that they prioritize. And so it really helps them move forward in their job search in a very mindful and thoughtful way and they start to get better results.
Dan Freehling (19:35):
That's spot on from everything I've seen with job seekers too, and which is really encourage folks to listen to that, to hear that. I love this paradox of choice overlay on it, and I think it's so smart, and I often talk about it as feeling productive versus being productive and this kind of, it can feel productive to blast off a ton of applications, but you have to remember that it's genuinely a winner take all process. They're generally only hiring one person for each opening, and you want to position yourself to be the best fit for that particular opening, which means counterintuitively often applying to fewer narrowing your search and really putting yourself at a competitive advantage.
Dan Perez (20:17):
Absolutely. And this gets to a very common question I get from leaders I'm partnering with, which is around the topic of being a specialist or being a generalist. And I'm very clear with folks that in all my years of executive recruiting, I have rarely, if not never seen a client hire a generalist. When organizations are looking for talented people, they're looking for a specific problem to solve and maybe might be looking for a generalist when it comes to a topic, they're looking for a global health generalist or a climate change generalist, but then they're looking for a specialist in a particular function, be it finance, operations, fundraising. And so you really have to be very specialized and think about what makes you a specialist and really bring that out in all of your materials, your cv, your interviews, the stories you share because you've really got to. And that gets down to narrowing down the paradox of choice in that you as an individual have these fantastic specialties and you really need to own them and really market them to the organizations that you're talking to. Because again, if you think of yourself as a generalist, then organizations are not going to understand why you are a fit for that specific problem that they have in that specific role that they're looking for
Dan Freehling (21:50):
So much there. And I love the thinking of it from that, what problem is the organization looking to solve? And then working backwards from there of, am I a good fit for this? And if so, how do I best position myself to really go after this problem hard? And this is again, a counterintuitive thing for job seekers. Something I see people struggling with a lot is they feel like they're boxing themselves in and removing themselves from other opportunities by going hard after that problem that they're looking to solve in that one. And it's the exact opposite. You have to tee up why you are such a good fit to solve this particular problem. And it's again, a winner take all process. So it doesn't do any good to be theoretically possibly able to do it 70%. Well, you have to really position yourself there.
Dan Perez (22:43):
Definitely.
Dan Freehling (22:44):
So switching back to the non mental and emotional side for a second, more to this tactical job search advice side. What do people typically get wrong with a resume or a CV from your perspective?
Dan Perez (22:57):
Actually, this really connects to what we were just talking about in that people can be way too general with their cv. I often tell folks, I'm partnering with that your CV is not your biography, your CV is your greatest hits. And people really feel like they have to be very high level, they have to be kind of more general in their cvs. And I tell them when they're talking to somebody like myself, executive search firm, talking about more general, more general conversation, like a coaching conversation, that's fine. But then I will see so many people submit CVEs for a particular role in getting to that specific problem that we were just talking about. And they don't address that in their cv. They don't address the specific ways, specific experiences that they've had solving a problem like that. And so then somebody who's reviewing the CV then doesn't get a sense of what they can bring.
(23:59):
And I mean, in my recruiting work, it happens almost every week, sometimes multiple times a day where I'll be interviewing somebody for a role, I have their CV in front of me and I'm asking them some follow-up questions and they'll tell me a story about an experience they had in their career and I'm just blown away and I have to tell them, I was like, Hey, that's an amazing experience. That's perfect for what this job needs. Why isn't it on your cv? And their answer is always like, well, I didn't want to be that specific. I ran out of room. And I'm like, no, your CV is exactly where you put that in. And I think again, people focus too much on including all the information in comprising their whole career. They put their whole biography in there and I was like, no, you've really got to make your CV tailored.
(24:49):
You got to make it very specialized. Don't make it too general. You've got to really focus down to what the role needs, what the organization, what that role is particularly looking for, and really just make that all about. And I've done that in my own career search. And even when I was even talking to SRI and navigating the transition from there, I had a whole career before I moved into executive search and management consulting, but then when I was talking to them and they looked at my cv, you would've thought that in my management consulting career, I had only been doing recruiting or HR specific roles, but that was because I was doing a very key thing that I often recommend to people and I was emphasizing specific things in my experience. And so in all my management consulting roles, what I did is I took things that were connected to recruiting, hr, and I emphasized those. I put those at the top of my resume at the top of each position to really show, Hey, this is what I focused on that was relevant to you and this is what I focused on that was relevant to the role. And of course I included a little more about some of those other things, but any organization is going to want to really first know how you're applicable to that particular role. And so you've got to reflect that in your cv.
Dan Freehling (26:11):
The greatest Hits framing is really something that I hope people have heard and listened to hear and tell specific stories that show how you solve the kind of problems that this role needs to solve that this organization is looking to solve. And again, you're hearing this from someone who's top of his game in executive search, this is really what that side is looking for. This is what organizations are looking for. And again, this can be really surprising for people who want to not do that because how could my past experience be relevant to this? I want to make sure that I'm casting as wide a net as possible. I want to make sure that I'm not talking about a specific story that's not exactly what's written on the job description and it's getting under the surface of what are they really trying to solve here? What's the job to be done here and how do you show, not tell that you're a great fit for that?
Dan Perez (27:08):
Yeah, that's super accurate and it's something I wish a lot of people did. And in fact, I mean what I recommend to folks that I'm partnering with is that you build very specialized multiple copies of your cv. So if you have say three very specific types of roles that you want to go after, then you make each cv, each version very tailored and you emphasize specific things in your CV that are relevant to that area. And then as you're applying, as you start to review job descriptions, you might see certain things called out in the role description and you're like, oh, wait, I have a great story about that. And then you use that to update that specific cv. So you're really bringing out those details, are bringing out that color. And the people that I've seen who have done this have gotten dramatic results because they really just turn their CV into their greatest hits. And especially leaders that I work with, executives, they've had long careers, they have might have multiple sets of greatest hits, they have multiple albums, they have a deep library of work to draw from, but you can really build multiple versions of your CV that show off those different sides. Maybe one is more strategy focused, maybe one is more leadership focused, but then you really emphasize those different things in those CCBs and you'll start to see dramatic success.
Dan Freehling (28:41):
Absolutely. Absolutely. So really encourage people to follow that advice. That's exactly what we recommend to people as well. And be more specific than you think. That's always going to be better. Dan, I know you're more at the executive level and I would love to hear any thoughts you have on your end of how much an applicant tracking system, this kind of AI screening factors into what you do with clients at all?
Dan Perez (29:10):
Oh, it's a great question. We as an executive search firm don't use applicant tracking systems, but we work with a lot of clients that do. What we found is that if people are applying to these roles that are very specific to them and they're putting in those specific details into their CV and really bringing that out, then that will pass the a TS every time. I always recommend to people, don't bother putting in that list of keywords because that's not going to matter to somebody reviewing it, person reviewing it. They're going to want to see what you bring out. And if you're doing it properly, you're bringing out the specific experience and you're integrating those keywords into your examples, that's going to have a much bigger impact anyway because when you get through an A TS, you're going to be read by a person anyway and you want to be tailoring your CV to the person, not the computer
Dan Freehling (30:15):
Spot on. So don't completely ignore the keywords, that's part of it, but integrate them in, tell stories that show your fit, that use the right words, but are not thrown in there to try to beat the a TS in any way. And again, for whatever part of this search, the a TS is a part of, it's this very broad screening and you're getting it through and then it's getting read by a person. And at the executive level it might be a higher level person, it's generally a recruiter, a junior level HR person taking a first read at it who's smart and probably cares and probably doesn't know a ton about what you do, but that's who you're writing for. Keeping it simple, writing it for humans, getting it geared toward what the problem is that the job is trying to solve is where we advise people focus. And I'm glad to hear that on your end too.
Dan Perez (31:06):
Exactly. And I have a saying that I like to use with people, which is those keywords are the what of the job, but nobody wants to read a CV just knowing what of your background. They want to understand the so what they want to know, what are the things that you've accomplished, just not what you've done, but what's the impact that you've made? And so I have kind of a framework that I walk through with people when they're talking about these keywords and I ask them, well, what was the impact that you made? What was the specific change that you did? What was the things that you did better than anybody else? And you got to include that in your cv. And going back to the mental emotional side, I mean, I've coached so many people that worry about imposter syndrome and they're like, well, I shouldn't really be talking about myself like this.
(32:03):
They say, oh, well, multiple people were helping me on this project. It wasn't just me. I have to tell. I was like, the CV is the number one place where it is perfectly and acceptable to be talking yourself up. That is the place to do it. And I have never read a CV in my whole career where I'm like, that person talks about themselves way too much. I mean, that's the whole point. And so imposter syndrome is very real, and I know I suffer from it on occasion. And it's a very common thing even for people who are well, who are already executives. I mean, I've talked with CEOs that have imposter syndrome, but the CV is the one place where you really need to bring out the so what for your career and let people know what was the impact that you had, what was the thing that you did differently better than anybody else, go past just the keywords and really get into that story.
Dan Freehling (33:07):
Again, just really great advice. Couldn't more highly recommend this, and you're so spot on the imposter syndrome and trying to kind of halt back on the resume and this is the place to really showcase that the, so what is such a good point again, because it's really, it's more than even there's all this advice on make sure you have a ton of metrics and the resume. And I find that it's great when you can put those in, but often it's things that might not have an easy to access metric. And even then putting in, so why does this matter? What was the impact of this is still really important. It might be even more important than the ones where you can easily say increased revenue, 40% or something.
Dan Perez (33:50):
Yeah, definitely. And there are so many ways to capture that impact beyond just the data, and there are stories that you can tell, things that you can bring in, or even if the impact is that you learned something out of the experience, that's sometimes even more important than the success that you had because everybody wants to know where you learned, where you developed, what you grew from just as much as the success that you had.
Dan Freehling (34:20):
This really ties into stories and it can sound kind of fluffy and it can sound very coachy, and I know that can come across for people what really are the value of stories in the job search.
Dan Perez (34:33):
Stories are incredibly important, especially as we get into the interview process. And if I could tell your listeners what is the number one thing that will sync a candidate? A great candidate when they get into the interview phase, especially with my clients, is that they just go, they talk and talk and talk and people getting into these high level interviews, they really need to have a narrative for very important questions. They need to have a narrative and a story about themselves. Why are they interested in this role? Why this role, why now? What is it about this opportunity that's a match for them? And so many times I've seen candidates get a simple question like that one, they knew what was coming and they'll go on for 10 minutes. And at that point, I mean people are human, and this is getting back to the mental principles that there's only so much information that people can process.
(35:37):
And so if you're listening to somebody and they go on tell a story and go on three different tangents, you're not going to be able to follow what they're delivering and the impact that they had gets lost in that narrative. So I really, really coach people to think about stories that they want to bring in to an interview, and these are stories of fantastic impacts that they've had, changes that they've made. We could even tie back to the three things I've talked about, stories about a strategy that they did, stories about great leadership experiences, that they've had stories about, great partnerships that they've done, things that really highlight for the listener about why they're a fit for this role. And this gets back to that common advice about people hearing about an elevator pitch, but it's an elevator story. I mean, we all understand stories so much more than data, and we understand these narratives more than just a random collection of different thoughts and in tangents.
(36:43):
So I often recommend to people, there's a common framework called the STAR technique. If they haven't heard of that, really look into that. And then as they're preparing for interviews, what I recommend to people is take the 10 common questions out there and use the star technique and think about a two to three minute answer using the star technique that gets into your experience, gets into impact that you've had, and you build a couple of stories that address those potential questions. And you're going to be so strong going into an interview because you're going to have a tight story that you can go back to. You're going to talk for two to three minutes and then you can move into something else, but you're going to have something that you've worked on that you understand and that you can turn back to really help demonstrate your experience. Otherwise, as I said, I mean the number one thing that syncs people in these interviews is that they talk and talk and talk, and they don't have a tight narrative, a tight story behind what they're describing. So I really recommend for people to look into that and really try to craft the best two to three minute stories to really talk about their experience and impact.
Dan Freehling (37:58):
Again, just spot on and talk in stories, show previous experiences you've had that are relevant for the job to be done, that are relevant for what the org is looking for. And don't worry, that previous experience is not exactly what this org is looking for. On the job description, you're showing that you're the right person for this, and Star is great. So it's situation, task, action, results. So definitely recommend people who are going from basically zero stories to having stories. It's a great entry level framework for being able to talk in the form of stories. And then if you're already using that, if you've already experienced that, I recommend really vamping on stories in ways that are interesting and compelling and making sure you're setting up that whole what was going on, any context that's hyper relevant, what you did that was really interesting in the form of a story. And then back to the so what question that Dan raised, that's super important too. Make sure you're finishing on, okay, why does this matter? Why should we care about this?
Dan Perez (39:06):
And then what was the impact that you had? What were you able to do that couldn't be done, or how did you succeed? Or even, I mean, I've had great candidates talk about stories where they failed and where they failed and what they learned from. And that is, it's super authentic, it's super honest, and I've seen those kinds of stories really land when it comes to being delivered in an interview.
Dan Freehling (39:30):
Amazing. Amazing. What's the role of energy in how we evaluate our career choices overall?
Dan Perez (39:38):
It's a great question, and again, one I think is very, very underappreciated in how people navigate their next steps for their career. And so basically just to start, I mean the concepts of flow and concepts of energy. One, the concept of flow was brought to prominence by an author named Haley, it's Hungarian. He has a very complicated last name, but the book is called Flow Psychology of Optimal Experience. And then another book's called Powerful Engagement by Tony Schwartz. These are two of my favorite books, and they get to the same idea, which is that we have these things in our career that we might think that we're passionate about, but what really matters is, and in the concept of flow, it's about what do you do that you just lose time doing? What is it that you put your head down doing something in hours pass?
(40:40):
And then when the concept of energy, it's what are the things that we do that even if we're done, we've been working on something for two hours, we're so energized by the end of it, we want to go for longer. And these are things like people talk about this term of passion, but then this is a very practical way to put that into practice. And I mean, here's a great example from my own life. I have a great friend of mine, she works in data analytics and she spends hours each day pouring over spreadsheets, playing in Excel, and she's told me what she does for work, and I'm like, that sounds awful. I don't think I could do that for more than 30 minutes. And then when I tell her, oh, well, I spend six hours with my day on the telephone talking to people, she's like, oh, that sounds like my hell.
(41:33):
And we're both right. But for her is that she gets so much energy from going into that. And I get so much energy talking to people, and my day just passes, which is how I know I'm doing the work I love. And so I think people really, what I recommend people do is that they sit down and they think about their day and think about what's a specific thing in their day that they're most excited about and that they lose hours of their career doing, sorry, hours of their day doing. And that could just be in their work. I mean, that could be something in their volunteer time, that could be something that they're doing for a hobby, but it's something that they can bring into their work even at a very tactical level. And so in my own career, I mean when I made the switch to executive recruiting, I had been spending a lot of my career in management consulting doing primary source interviews, which was you call an expert or you call somebody in an organization and you get a whole lot of primary source information from them about a topic that you're dealing with.
(42:42):
And I loved those in my old work. I was always the one volunteering in my team to do them. And some people hated it. Some people wanted to do the data analytics like my friends. And so when I learned about executive recruiting as a career and I was like, oh, this is perfect. I love spending time with people. And I think what's also important to realize is the opposite, which is what are those things that drain you? What are those things that just when you have to do them in your job that you just dread and you're doing something for half an hour and you're just already exhausted? And I mean, I talk about in some of my writing that what we don't want to do is just as important as what we do want to do, and we have to recognize that and use that to guide our decisions.
(43:36):
And this is something very personal for me because I early, I was in college and really wanted to do medicine, did pre-med in college my first year of college, and I got very lucky in that summer after my freshman year, I got an internship at a hospital where I got, it was this great program where I was shadowing a doctor for the summer, basically just sat in with him and his all day in and day out. And I barely finished that internship and immediately got back to college next year and dropped pre-medicine because just following this doctor, I got so drained by the day-to-day work that they were doing the paperwork and so many other parts of being a doctor that most people don't appreciate. And so it's a very important thing to sit down and think about what are the things you do want to do and what are the things that give you energy and what are the things that you just lose hours of your day doing?
(44:35):
And then just as importantly as the opposite and use those as key guideposts for the things you think about next in your career. Because just to tie back to the things that we look for, if leadership doesn't give you energy, if fundraising doesn't give you energy, that's fine. But then there's got to be, maybe it's strategy, maybe it's something else, but there's going to be something that really gives you energy and really use that to prioritize, be that specialist, so we've talked about in that area because that's where you're going to start seeing the most success.
Dan Freehling (45:12):
Such a great story and so many tiebacks there to everything we've been discussing. Thanks for sharing that. Are there other books, I know you mentioned the book on Flow and these other energy books. Are there other books or other resources of any kind that you find particularly impactful for job seekers, for people thinking about career, for anything else in that world?
Dan Perez (45:35):
Absolutely. Yeah, highly recommend flow and then power of full engagement as we've talked about. And then I'm a big fan of the work of Cal Newport. He's a professor at Georgetown University in DC but has really built a very strong career for himself in books in different areas. And so just tying back to what we talked about, about being a specialist versus being a generalist, he wrote a book called “So Good They Can't Ignore You.” That's so important for people to look at because it talks about the importance of being a specialist, developing these skills, becoming a master and an expert at particular areas to that point where people really know you for that and call you up for that. And it's been a big inspiration for my own career. Two of his other books that I also highly recommend are “Deep Work” and “Digital Minimalism.”
(46:28):
And both are kind of tied to what I talked about earlier about the paradox of choice, which is we have so many opportunities and so much information on hand that what has become such a key skill now is being able to narrow down and to prioritize and to shut out the things that are less important to us. And so both of those books are very useful for helping the people to be more productive, start to prioritize really getting into deep work, which is about really focused time where you're like and flow that you're just losing hours of your day doing in a good way. And so his book was a big inspiration for, and his work is a big inspiration for my writing and then also my own career development. And then I'm going to give an outside the box recommendation to people, which is the work of Mark Manson.
(47:25):
I mean, he's best well known for the book “Subtle Art of Not Giving an F,” but he has done a lot of writing on values, on goal setting, on productivity and things that are very important to what I was talking about earlier, which is how you think about what you want to specialize in, how you think about the goals that drive you. His work I think is very, he does a lot in this that I think will be very helpful for people. And it very much ties into the work that's inspired me, just about how to really delve into your mental and emotional processes, think about the things mentally and emotionally that might be holding you back. He talks a lot about imposter syndrome and his work, and so I highly recommend that people check him out.
Dan Freehling (48:19):
Oh, really Great recommendations. I'll definitely be checking those out. And I've definitely come across the flow and the Cal Newport stuff. I'm very excited to dive into the rest. These are just real mindset shifts for people in a way that I think is super important, especially in this time where so much of the job search is about everything you've talked about of mindset, of the personal, of the mental components to this, the emotional components of this and these kinds of books that may not even be directly about the job search can really play into this in such a big way. Great. Awesome. So Dan, it's been such a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights with listeners. I know when people are on the job hunt, there's a lot of sometimes well-intentioned, sometimes not so well-intentioned bad information out there that I've come across. And this is a big part of what I'm trying to do with talking to people like yourself who are at really the top of their game and executive search, especially in the social sector space, is to really bring direct information from what you really think about what you really look for. And then what I love about you is you also bring this whole other side of this coaching experience and this career advising experience that rounds out some of the more specific recruiting advice as well. So thank you so much for sharing that with everyone.
Dan Perez (49:40):
No, thank you, Dan, for putting together this podcast and for inviting so many great speakers to talk about this. I think it's something people really need as they navigate what's going on in their own career and then what we've talked about turmoil in the international development space right now. So thanks so much for the opportunity.
Dan Freehling (49:57):
So Dan, how can listeners learn more about your writing, about SRI executive follow along with you?
Dan Perez (50:03):
Great, thank you. People can definitely follow me on LinkedIn. I post very regularly about opportunities that SRI is involved with as well as we're writing that I'm doing. And that's definitely where I'm going to be sharing updates about the book and other writing that I'm doing and we'll be looking to put out later this year. For SRI also highly recommend you follow us on LinkedIn where you can get regular updates about roles we're working on and other resources that we put out there. We also have a newsletter and an opportunities page that people can check out regularly or repost all our roles. And so I highly recommend that people take a look at those check in every two to three weeks because we keep that very current with all the active roles that we're working on. And then if people are interested in coaching, SRI is a fantastic network of coaches that we partner with. And so if they're looking to make next steps in their career, definitely reach out and we can connect you with some great individuals.
Dan Freehling (51:06):
Great. Highly recommend everyone takes Dan on all of that advice. And we'll put the links to all the books that were recommended to all of these resources in the show notes at contempusleadership.com. So don't feel like gift have to be scrambling to write all these down and just so much great advice and resources shared here. So Dan, thank you so much again, I really appreciate it.
Dan Perez (51:27):
Thank you so much, Dan. Very much appreciate the invite and very much looking forward to following what your podcast does next and all the great future speakers you're going to have.
Dan Freehling (51:37):
Thanks so much. Take care. Take care.
(51:40):
Hey everyone, I hope you found that episode really valuable, and if you did, if you could please share it with someone who might find it useful and take a second to leave a quick review on whatever podcast app you're using, even just the stars is great, it goes a long way in helping others to discover the show. And if you liked this episode, check out our previous episode with Corey Spitzer on becoming a fractional executive, authentic confidence, and the 20-minute disagreement rule. Here's a clip from it.
Corey Spitzer (52:03):
And I think there's a large chunk of software engineers that are driven by when a customer's eyes light up because they're using a feature you built for the first time and you get that feedback, at least for me, that's a kind of a magical moment. And in a lot of companies, they are so many layers away from a customer, they don't get that feedback. Now, not every technical person wants to interface with a customer, but to know that the work you did is not only being used but appreciated, that is a powerful force.
